Stefan Debois Podcast Transcript

Melody Moore [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Secret Resume podcast hosted by me, Melody Moore. In this podcast we explore the people, places and experiences that have shaped my guests, those which have influenced who they are as people and where they are in their work life today. Or as I like to call it, their secret resume. Before we dive in, I want to tell you about something that I’m really excited about, about which is our being free membership. We’re developing an online community which is designed for people who are interested in personal growth. If you’re navigating career transitions, maybe feeling stuck or burnt out or simply seeking more meaning in your life, then this is for you. Membership gives you access to a range of resources, a supportive community and monthly group coaching calls. It will allow you to explore what freedom means to you on your own terms Head to www.liberareconsulting.co.uk/being-free to join the waitlist..

Melody Moore [00:01:04]:
So my guest today is Stefan Debois. Stefan, please could you introduce yourself to the listeners?

Stefan Debois [00:01:11]:
Yeah, sure. And thank you for having me. By the way Melody, it’s an honour to be here. My name is Stefan and I’m the CEO of Pointerpro. Pointerpro is a software company and we make software to create assessments, assessments with automated advice reports and yeah a little bit about me I’m like graduated, I graduated as an engineer and then was still century before this one so I’m already quite some time in business let to say. And then afterwards I started quite quickly working in consulting. I have like 15 years that I’ve worked in consulting in like various like bigger organisations where I did like implementations of large enterprise systems like SAP and the alikes. It might sound a bit boring but I actually enjoyed those jobs very much until at a point and it was like a little bit around 2010 I think that I told it was always kind of a dream to start something on my own to start a known company and then I developed the idea to actually start it and also to get me again up to level with technology because I mean if you start something you, you, you would have to create something yourself to, to programme the software so to say if you want to create a software company.

Stefan Debois [00:02:52]:
And then in 201212 I created survey Any Place at the time it was called Survey Anyplace and then we renamed it afterwards. So we started with like surveys, customer satisfaction surveys that you probably all have received in your inbox from also other types of surveys. But then like in the course of the, of the years we have seen that surveys was quite difficult markets, a lot of competitions, kind of a Commodity like the survey software become a commodity. And then in 2019 we pivoted, we switched a little bit focus and we focused on assessments and that’s where we are now. We have then also rebranded to Pointer Co. Now we make assessments with like automated advice reports and we do it especially for professional service companies like for example Deloitte uses our tool for cybersecurity assessments. And we have also lots of smaller professional service companies like coaches like hr, but also outside hr. Those are the kind of companies that We typically have as client

Melody Moore [00:03:58]:
and I’m a client. So I was saying before you are the first person I’ve interviewed for my podcast where I’m actually a client of yours and I use Pointer Pro for I have an inclusive team diagnostic which I host on Pointer Pro and I’m just putting out a self sabotage diagnostic as well for individuals. So yeah, I love it. I find it really easy to use. So yes, like I say, first time of interviewing someone where I am a Client

Stefan Debois [00:04:30]:
to hear that you like it.

Melody Moore [00:04:34]:
Yeah, I do, I love it. So let’s take a leap backwards back to the, the late 90s, late 80s. Sorry, I think we’re going to go back to. And talk about your first thing which is a person who influenced you. So one of your teachers was this at school, at university. I’m not sure. So yeah, tell me a bit about that.

Stefan Debois [00:05:01]:
It was like a teacher at. At school and I think in the fifth grade like a mathematic teacher who was really passionate about his like about. About mathematics and we yeah up to then, yeah like school was for me like a bit unnecessary evil. But then he really yeah had something that it’s difficult to describe what. But that’s not only me but also some, some other kids at that moment in the school could like yeah. Transfer the passion for, for mathematics and science to. To those students. And I remember we really because we were then studying for the.

Stefan Debois [00:05:54]:
We want all. We all wanted to become engineer. And you had like an entrance exam for to become engineer and we, we tried to like yeah these small books where there were like questions that were asked like in the years before on that same exam and we tried to train ourselves by doing those exercises and we really during the break at school we really stayed with him in the classroom to really make more of these exercises. Something which is unbelievable if you think about it which we would like before if you would say that it’s cool that you would stay during the laundry break or the break to make exercise with a teacher, then we declare you.

Melody Moore [00:06:43]:
As an so you voluntarily spent extra time and that’s.

Stefan Debois [00:06:50]:
Yeah, that’s proof that this person was able to. To really inspire us and transfer his passions to us. And then also afterwards, the fact that I became an engineer then and was successful is also partially thanks to him because of course, I mean there’s a lot of people and other things that have played a role there also. But that’s really. I mean I think it’s certainly person to look up to. I even don’t know if he. If he’s still alive or so. But it was a long time ago.

Stefan Debois [00:07:24]:
It’s late 80s. So. Yeah, that’s mind.

Melody Moore [00:07:27]:
But you always think your teachers are ancient, don’t you? When you’re, when you’re in school and then you find out that they’re only 10 years older than you. You know, it’s. It feels like they seem so much older. What was it about what he did? Do you think that like were you interested in maths beforehand and you spotted.

Stefan Debois [00:07:48]:
That or was there something about the.

Melody Moore [00:07:50]:
Way he taught that was particularly inspiring?

Stefan Debois [00:07:52]:
I think it was both. Yeah. So I was interested in maths before and it was also like in the. You have different classes and that was the classes with most. Which was most focused on. On maths and science. So he was only teaching there and then. But also the way he.

Stefan Debois [00:08:14]:
Yeah, he acted and the way that he could explain the things and. And yeah, with a story about like an application of some of the maths. I mean. Yeah, that was very inspirational and not a lot of people have. Have that and we should have more teachers like that.

Melody Moore [00:08:35]:
So he was able to make it real rather than a. A sort of academic approach.

Stefan Debois [00:08:45]:
Yeah, more real, less abstract. And also to make it fun.

Melody Moore [00:08:51]:
I can’t imagine someone making maths fun.

Stefan Debois [00:08:56]:
But like, I mean all the teachers could do that with like we had a history teacher also which who, who could really if you remember the teacher after 40 years and probably the. He was kind of special history teacher was also like explaining the. Like the battle in Waterloo where Napoleon lost. I mean with a really good stories and I mean everybody was listening. Was really nice.

Melody Moore [00:09:23]:
Amazing. So you said he also influenced the fact you went on to do engineering.

Stefan Debois [00:09:31]:
Yes, well, perhaps I would have done engineering after anyways. But yeah, I mean he, I think he. I mean it was an important factor. I think not only that I chose engineering, but also that I passed in the. The exam because you also follow the exam, otherwise not possible. So in that sense, yes, he was, he was an important driver for that.

Melody Moore [00:09:56]:
Yeah, excellent I always think it’d be really funny if people just randomly heard this podcast and realised though, oh my God, that’s me. They’re talking. So your next person is again a person, which is your wife. And we’re looking here, you know, in the 90s. Do you want to talk a little bit about her and the importance of the role that she’s played in your life?

Stefan Debois [00:10:27]:
Yeah, sure. So I met my wife after my engineering studies and we went to. To France to, To study another year for like business economics. Because as an engineer you, you don’t have a lot of economics in. During, during university. And then I met her there. She’s Belgian, but I met her like during our studies in France. And yeah, I think we are still married.

Stefan Debois [00:10:59]:
So that’s already a good sign. But then the thing that I wanted to say, how she has influenced me, I think we, we have a lot of things in common, which is a good thing. We have sometimes also things not so in common. But there we. I think like, I think we both accept that like when, when she’s more like she wants to do the way A and I want to do it way B. That like the middle ground is potent. I mean, we both understand that the middle ground is possibly better than our original, the original way that we wanted to do some things like that with also like the education of our children. I tend to be more tolerant, she likes to be more strict.

Stefan Debois [00:11:48]:
And then I mean, yeah, the middle count is possibly. I mean it’s not possibly probably a good compromise, but not a compromise that. A compromise that actually is better than if I would educate my kids alone or if she would do so.

Melody Moore [00:12:13]:
And what’s it like for her being married to an entrepreneur? I’m guessing you were in consulting and then working for yourself. My guess would be that’s long hours and travel. Is she also working and doing something similar?

Stefan Debois [00:12:32]:
Yeah, she. She has worked until the birth of our second child. And yeah, in the beginning in consulting was long hours and now still it’s. It’s long hours, although it’s maybe less than in the beginning. So yeah, I mean that’s something that needs to be accepted. But on the other hand, like the weekends or evenings or like the holidays that you are together. Yeah, you have to be very conscious about that and to get the maximum out of it, like long time on approach that you don’t come back. I never have, I never was in favour of that.

Stefan Debois [00:13:24]:
So I had to do that one time, like at IBM in the time like we. I worked at PwC but that wasn’t acquired by IBM. And then I had to be like a long time growth, a long time. So only like a year or so, but that was still. That was too much. And I found that the family life and also seeing the children not so often that this is not really what I wanted. And then I switched to another consulting company who had more local, local clients here in Belgium and that was, that was much, much better. Like from a work life balance point of view.

Melody Moore [00:14:03]:
I’m curious around work life balance as you know. You’re part of a series of interviews I’m doing with entrepreneurs and burnout and balance is a, I know, a very live concern for many of them and I’m interested in how you’ve managed it. As you say, you gave an example there. Any other thoughts on how to avoid burnout as an entrepreneur?

Stefan Debois [00:14:29]:
Yeah, I’m maybe not like, I’m not really a perfectionist or so and those type of people have maybe more risk to have a burnout. So. But yeah, I mean for me personally, it’s like doing some other things that have nothing to do with work. And sports is one important thing where you can reset yourself like mentally, but also physically and family life, friends, but also do it without, without obligation. Because otherwise, I mean like you have to do sports, you have to do. You have to spend time with family and then you have to like be with friends and then go out and then. And you have only so many hours in the day and you have like all the work, of course. So then when it becomes like, like an obligation, then, then I think the danger of burnout is increasing.

Stefan Debois [00:15:39]:
So I try to limit only the things to the things that really give me energy and avoid the other things.

Melody Moore [00:15:48]:
So actually, are you saying that trying to do everything can cause burnout as much as just focusing on work?

Stefan Debois [00:16:00]:
Yeah, yeah, trying to do everything. And to. Because you, you can and you have a bad feeling when you, when you cannot do a certain thing or so I mean just fine to have an afternoon that, that you have nothing to do and just reading a book or whatever or doing nothing. I mean that, that’s perfectly fine if you don’t have those moments. I think it’s, it’s difficult.

Melody Moore [00:16:28]:
Are you good at relaxing?

Stefan Debois [00:16:31]:
Yeah, but relaxing is not like sitting in the sofa or lying on the, on the sunbed during holiday. It’s more like doing sports or so. And some people may not. I mean for some people it may be different and I understand that because some people like cycling for example, maybe like worse than Work. But, but for me it’s actually relaxing. And then it’s also, I mean both the physical aspect and also the social aspect because normally these sports you do also with friends and then afterwards you have drink or you have a good conversation. So yes, I think that’s my way to relax. But again, I mean other people maybe do that differently.

Melody Moore [00:17:23]:
So your relaxing is still doing, but it’s just doing something different with different people.

Stefan Debois [00:17:31]:
Yeah, exactly. If there’s no deadline or no stress that you have to do something, then yeah, most things can be relaxing. Even working in the garden or cooking. These are things that I don’t do that often, by the way. But if you have enough time for it, if you have the whole day to make a special recipe, to go to the shop to buy the ingredients and everything and it’s quite relaxing. But not if you arrive at six o’clock from your work and at half past six the children have to have to have foods on their plate and still have to go shopping and so on, then it’s not relaxing.

Melody Moore [00:18:14]:
So it sounds like something without a deadline.

Stefan Debois [00:18:17]:
Yeah, sometimes I think also in work and that might seem like counterintuitive, like from an efficiency point of view, but it’s like relaxing to have no deadline. So to have like an evening when my wife is, for example, not home in the evening, that I can work until 11:00 and not really I don’t have to be productive because I, I don’t. The fact to not have to be productive is relaxing and you do some work. But maybe you could have done the same work in half the time, but it’s not really a problem because I mean you, you have, you have the time. Of course, I mean you cannot do that always.

Melody Moore [00:19:02]:
That’s interesting. So even working can be relaxing if it’s.

Stefan Debois [00:19:07]:
Yeah, even working. But those are mostly the moments that you take some work, some things that you like read an article that you always wanted to read but never took the time for or some things that maybe or look at some statistics or some numbers that require a little bit more processing or whatsoever time but you can do it at ease. And I mean that doesn’t feel as, as work, honestly. I mean that’s, that is. I have no problem in doing that. Even if it’s in the evening or in the weekends.

Melody Moore [00:19:46]:
I find myself doing the things I really enjoy in the evenings or weekends. You know, like my, I’m single parent, my daughter will quite often she’ll be out doing whatever activities she does and I’ll find myself Drifting to my laptop and doing some of the fun things that I don’t always have time to do. I mean, they might not be fun to other people, but to me, you know, I find myself. And the same. It feels. Doesn’t feel like work. It feels like relaxing because it’s a fun bit of the job. Okay, brilliant.

Melody Moore [00:20:17]:
Thank you. Let’s move on to 2010. You had an accident. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

Stefan Debois [00:20:29]:
I had a snowboard accident. I mean, it sounds quite serious, maybe if you tell it like this, but I mean, I’m. I’m still here, I’m still healthy. So it. It was more or less okay, but at the moment itself, it was of course scaring. So I’m. I felt on my back and I hope for ver. Vertebras.

Stefan Debois [00:20:50]:
Is that the way you say it? And. But luckily there was not like the nerve, which is like inside the vertebras, was not touched, but it was really painful. And there was nothing that they could do, like, from like surgery or things like that. So I just had to rest and then it would heal on itself. But that were like four weeks that I had to be like, flat in the bed. And then afterwards, well, during these four weeks also, I could stand up from time to time. It was quite painful. And then that was in 2010, I think.

Stefan Debois [00:21:31]:
And in 2012, I started my company. So then that made me think about starting a company, and then I had time to think about. That might sound strange, but all the, like, I was in consulting. There was like a lot of going on day to day, but if you’re like four weeks in your bed, then everything suddenly stops and. And yeah, there I made a decision to. To start a company. Now again, had I not had a snowboard accident, I probably will also have started the company and maybe it would have been another moment or so. But.

Stefan Debois [00:22:09]:
But yeah, I mean, it’s like a moment that maybe there’s all bettings also. I mean, the same in Dutch. Like every, like batting also has a good size. Yeah. And that’s the same for that snowboard accident. So the fact that you. I mean, the side effect from that accident is that you have like four weeks, just no work. No even.

Stefan Debois [00:22:35]:
Yeah. No sports. No. The priorities that frees your mind. And then you get thinking about this thing that you want to do in life, the company, and also other things and also rich company. And you can of course read something, then listen to podcasts. Although that was like this for the beginning. You didn’t have so Much podcast back then than you have now, but you had a few interesting ones, so.

Stefan Debois [00:23:03]:
Yeah, and that’s a positive thing about this accident.

Melody Moore [00:23:08]:
So you were in consulting, were you? You know, I remember when I started consulting, I thought I’m going to start my own business. And then 20 something years later I actually did it. I thought I’d do it much sooner. Were you the same? Did you always have a thought that you would start a business? Did you have an idea of what kind of business it would be? Or did that come when you were lying there?

Stefan Debois [00:23:39]:
Yeah, I think it was the same as you. Like I started and saw only 20 or maybe, yeah, 17 years later than I started. Yeah, the thing was like in consulting you always get new projects and it’s an interesting job. And then also with the children, small children that you have to take care of, it’s not easy to have a lot of change which can be. Yeah. Stressed because it’s always, there’s always a risk that it doesn’t go well. So then you, you postpone that decision. But I always knew that I wanted to start something and not exactly what I knew because I was like working a lot with enterprise software as during my time as a consultant.

Stefan Debois [00:24:32]:
So it would be logical to go into software. But I could also have done like a consulting business just the same that I did for these large companies, but to do it for my own or with a number of people as a small consulting business, that would also have been a possibility. But software was always my dream. Then I didn’t know what exactly. And then during my time after snowboard accident, I started to read a lot of things like about what I wanted to do exactly. But first my first idea was in fact to do something with CRM, customer relationship management. But then I decided to not to do it, to do this like with the surveys, because I thought that the CRM market was already overcrowded, but I mean, which was maybe the case, but that doesn’t mean that there’s no room for new players. But yeah, I mean, that’s the way it went.

Melody Moore [00:25:31]:
And what was it like as a very sort of active person, both, you know, sports wise, work wise, to all of a sudden not be able to move for four weeks. That must have been a really difficult time. I mean, you’re talking about the positives now, but I imagine that would have been quite a struggle.

Stefan Debois [00:25:56]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s true. Because especially physically that you. Yeah, your body’s still recovering from the, from the accident, of course, but then also you cannot move Then it makes you physically, I mean, less strong and you. Yeah, you simply don’t feel well. And then that also has mental implications. So. So yeah, I mean it was like sometimes difficult but as I said I, when I look back on it, I mostly see it as something positive. Like the most difficult thing was maybe the pain in the beginning, quite some pain.

Stefan Debois [00:26:45]:
And then like also the night it was difficult to move like to, to go into another position when sleeping. And that’s really. Yeah. Then sleep and you don’t sleep well. And then has consequences for the day after. And then. But okay, the pain was especially the first week, then afterwards it was better.

Melody Moore [00:27:10]:
Did you ever worry that you wouldn’t get better?

Stefan Debois [00:27:15]:
No, I think. Well, no, the only fear was that I was going to be there was some of the pain that would never go away or that somehow I wouldn’t be able to do any more sports or certain types of sports. But then I started also reading about it and, and I, I found out for example, I don’t know if it was that like the, the well known football player like Neimash, the one that’s played by this Paris Saint Germain, he also fell on his back, not on the snowboard but on the football field. And he had a similar, he had a similar kind of accident and similar way to. Yeah. To. To break the vertebras. And he was like footballing again after six months or so.

Stefan Debois [00:28:15]:
So those things gave me some, some hope.

Melody Moore [00:28:20]:
Well, if he can. Do you think that if he can do it then I can too?

Stefan Debois [00:28:24]:
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Melody Moore [00:28:25]:
So tell me about how you then went about. Did you immediately leave your consulting job once you recovered and start the business? What. How did all of that work in terms of setting up your, your business?

Stefan Debois [00:28:42]:
No, then I, I actually worked like more than a year still at csc. Was that in the time like Computer Science Corporation. But in parallel I did like hobby project that was in called Tablet Quiz. In Time was a website that I have set up and with an application to make your own quizzes especially focused at the iPads. Those were the first day, the first days of the iPad. So it was like never interactive and very nice to be able to play a quiz on the iPad. Mostly for personal use. Then I saw that, I mean a lot of companies also started to use those quizzes.

Stefan Debois [00:29:24]:
It was free by the way, so they didn’t have to pay for it and like for HR events, for engagements and so on. And then I started to talk to those users and then yeah, I mean there was some. We saw that there was some potential to. Yeah, to monetize that. To make a business based on that kind of application. And then we. And I say we because in the meanwhile there was already another employee, another ex colleague of mine that have asked to join like informally first without leaving his current job, but it was more like evening and weekend work. And then we decided to create really a company.

Stefan Debois [00:30:11]:
And that was like in July 2012 I resigned. And then in September 2012 we launched the first version.

Melody Moore [00:30:26]:
And then you had left or you.

Stefan Debois [00:30:29]:
Yeah, we left in July. But then, I mean some of the work was already done because we did it after the hours in September we were able to launch the first paying version. In fact, survey any place was it called in the time and from then on. Yeah, we were full time in the new company.

Melody Moore [00:30:52]:
So it was what they would call these days a side hustle originally.

Stefan Debois [00:30:56]:
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that’s something that I commend to other people also if you can to do that because you learn a lot and you learn also the constraints because you only have the hours, even not your full set of hours. It’s only after your regular work or job. So that’s. Yeah, I think it’s interesting to do.

Melody Moore [00:31:17]:
And what gave you the confidence to then quit your jobs and go full time?

Stefan Debois [00:31:23]:
Yeah, I think it’s. It’s a calculated risk, as always. The fact that I still have these screenshots of these emails because the emails actually I don’t have the, the actual emails, but the screenshots where these people say like from. Yeah, like were a lot of teachers and so on, but also really persons from companies like hr persons like we use this quiz for employees. And then I also checked out whether I could call them and we did some calls and they say like ask like if I would have a paid product for this and would you also use it. And they said yes at the time the price was of course very low. So for like a large company to pay like 50, 50 bucks or so, that’s not a big deal. But yeah, it’s mainly that’s what gave me the confidence to.

Stefan Debois [00:32:15]:
To start because I think like if they’re. They are this type of company, HR versus this kind of. There’s many companies like that. So then the market must be big enough at least to. To create a small company and even a bigger company. So it was not like that calculated or it was more based on quality feedback.

Melody Moore [00:32:37]:
And initially there Was just the two of you?

Stefan Debois [00:32:41]:
Yes, just the two of us. And then there was a third person that came in, like in around December 2012. Then a more commercial profile. And like always with the business partner, the first month, they just do it for free without commitments. It’s a bit like skin in the game. The skin in the game is the free work, the sweat money, as they call it, that you give away to the new company. Then afterwards, you of course have to formalise. You have to formalise everything in shareholder agreement and officially load them in the company.

Melody Moore [00:33:21]:
And you said at some point you pivoted, you were initially looking at sort of engagement surveys, is that right? And then you’ve chosen to focus more on assessments. When did that happen and what made you think we need to do something different?

Stefan Debois [00:33:38]:
Yeah, that happened like quite some numbers of years later. Because in the beginning we were quite successful, like with the surveys we wanted to have. We really focused on the respondent experience and to make that experience superior and by doing that, collecting more and better data. And in the beginning that, that worked well. And also we were, I think, nicer looking than the other, like survey tools, which were more focused on market research. But then afterwards, yeah, all the competitors did the same and we were more like. Yeah, we were not so different anymore from the others, which was a problem. Of course, then we knew, I mean, we knew it, we knew that we had to go for more like a niche, something that’s maybe smaller but higher valuable and then for more, more targeted customer audience.

Stefan Debois [00:34:35]:
But then only in 2019, so seven years later we, we have done some. We have explored some niches which afterwards, afterwards figured out that this was like a dead end, it was not worthwhile pursuing. But you only find out when you do it, of course, so you, you lose some time or you invest some time by doing that. Then in 2019, we saw that was not like strategic genius, master plan or. So I was just talking to customers and if you see that customers, yeah, that first customer is asking for a personalised PDF report and then second a customer is asking the same. Well, not the same report, but the same principle, like to have a personalised reports and the personalization or the personalised content is dependent on what was the response of the, of the questionnaire then? I mean, you ask yourself, would it be good to make a product based on this? And that’s exactly what we’ve done in 2019 with the reporter. And then we had the assessments or the questionnaire, the survey or the assessment, you can call it like you want, and the reports like in one application. And also the logic, which is in between the conditional logic that you need to set up to determine dynamic content of the report.

Stefan Debois [00:36:00]:
Yeah. If you have all that in one tool then it, I mean we prove to be like very differentiating because there’s no other player that has it.

Melody Moore [00:36:12]:
I think for me the thing that attracted me was the sort of self service nature of it. So I can go in there and and create my own tools and then adjust them and do what I want with them and not have to rely on someone else, you know, waiting for someone else to do that or someone else’s timeline. So that for me is what was particularly attractive is the. There’s not really much out there that allows you to do that.

Stefan Debois [00:36:41]:
Yeah, that’s valuable feedback actually because we once had a customer indeed that says it’s a tool to create your own tool. A tool to create a tool. Which is a nice way to say it. And it’s also independently of the content. I mean the content is really from our customers. And unlike some other tools which have predefined content, we are content agnostic and we also, we also are conscious not to go in the same market as our customers. Like also to distribute or sell content. And somehow we only do the software and we try to be good at it, but we stay away from the content.

Melody Moore [00:37:24]:
Oh, that’s interesting. So you don’t create competition against your customers. Interesting. And did your customers change a lot from when you moved from doing the more kind of engagement surveys to the assessments, different client base?

Stefan Debois [00:37:43]:
Yes. Before it was more like customers who had a lot of consumers. Like a lot of. Yeah, sometimes like financial institutions, utility companies, also marketing agencies. We had a lot of B2C kind of surveys and now it’s more like professional services consultants, coaches like you more B2B focus. And so yeah, they want. Before it was data collection, if you have to say it in two words. And now it’s advice automation, you have to say it in two words.

Stefan Debois [00:38:26]:
So they want to automate their advice, which is something different. And data collection, of course, data collection is the first step. You have to collect data. It’s like when a consultant or coach comes like at a new customer for the first time, he or she is not going to give advice immediately. They always will ask questions and based on the answers on those questions they will give some advice. But it’s exactly the process that we want to automate. So that’s our goal.

Melody Moore [00:38:57]:
Yeah, I like that. You know, tell me about some highs.

Stefan Debois [00:39:02]:
And lows of owning your own business.

Melody Moore [00:39:05]:
What have been the real highs? What have been some not so highs?

Stefan Debois [00:39:12]:
Yeah, the highs is always, I think the most important high is when the customer that doesn’t know you. So in the beginning you have a lot of customers from your network. The first customer, like the very first customer is a high also of course. But the very first customer that originates from outside your network is even more important high, I would say because you, you know that this person has like looked on the Internet and somehow found you and then based on your product notes on yourself because they don’t know you, they have made a choice to pay for your product. And that’s gives like a degree of recognition satisfaction that is unique. I think then it’s like something that you made yourself is worth something because they want to pay for it. It’s certainly high. And it’s still high now because now we have many customers, but still.

Stefan Debois [00:40:16]:
And customers large or small, choose you. It’s still, I mean it’s not a given. I mean it’s, it’s still kind of gives a special type of recognition. The lows are. Yeah, when it’s also related to the customers. I, I think I’m quite customer focus also maybe for my consulting background. If the customers are happy, I’m happy and customers are unhappy, I’m unhappy. So when a customer complains, when they churn because of reasons where you can, you could have avoided it or when they don’t like your tool, when they give a bad review, I mean these kind of things happen.

Stefan Debois [00:41:04]:
Then that’s really low. I can really. We have sleep sleepless nights because of that. Yeah, that’s. It’s also part of doing this, try to avoid it. But that really touches me personally.

Melody Moore [00:41:21]:
Do you think that’s different to when you were a consultant? Like do you feel it’s more. Because it feels more that it’s you. I’m just curious. It may have felt the same when you know if you had a negative review from a customer when you were a consultant. But I’m just curious if it feels different.

Stefan Debois [00:41:43]:
Yeah, it’s a bit. I felt also negative back then. But then you have a bigger team and it’s more like, I mean you’re not like representing the company in the same. To the same extent. Back then I was. It’s a big company, I was only one of the employees or later managers or so even as a manager it’s only a small part. And yes, it had also a negative impact. But now it’s stronger when you have.

Stefan Debois [00:42:16]:
When you’re an entrepreneur and it’s your own business. There’s also the fact that the big companies is better like prepared or I mean they can absorb these kind of shocks if it’s negative like much better than smaller company. Smaller company doesn’t have to. You can have one customer that churn because of the fact that he’s didn’t like the product or the service. But if you have more than one and if that’s like repeating thing then it’s really. It’s not only like just personal inconvenience but it can be. But at risk. It can put at risk the future of the company.

Melody Moore [00:42:58]:
Yeah. Because you’re smaller it has a bigger impact. Yeah. Okay, let’s move to your final person. You’re going to talk about who’s your father and the influence he’s had on you. Do you want to tell us a bit about that?

Stefan Debois [00:43:17]:
Yes, yes. My father actually passed away two years ago and that’s why I put the date of 2021 I think. Yeah, I think my father was a very calm person. He was a surgeon and what I learned from him is that you don’t have to be like. How do they say that that you always have to like talk a lot and be very present and. And this kind of personnel having that kind of personality to. To be able to. Yeah.

Stefan Debois [00:43:56]:
To realise something in life and to. Because he was a well respected surgeon and. And had a good career before I. I was maybe thinking that. That it’s especially these type of people who are successful in life but by seeing my father evolving and doing and reaching the life goals I mean or I mean reaching success in his life as he did is something that I learned that you don’t have to be like there’s different parts to success than just being the one that is always present and talks a lot and so on. That’s something that has impacted me from looking at my father.

Melody Moore [00:44:53]:
So it sounds like you’re saying that you could be a more introverted leader.

Stefan Debois [00:45:01]:
Exactly. I may be. I mean not extremely introvert and I think yeah there’s certainly people that are more introvert and then you have to deal with clients and so it’s maybe I mean if you’re too introvert also not be the best thing. I really like to be with other people and I like to meet new people and so it’s not a task me to. To meet new people. So I’m not intro. Introvert in that sense. But I don’t need to have always like the most of the do most of the talking and everything and that’s the same as my father and Sometimes you think, is that not a handicap or so.

Stefan Debois [00:45:47]:
But the answer is no. I mean, you can perfectly succeed as an entrepreneur, as a surgeon or something else in life without doing that.

Melody Moore [00:45:58]:
I think that’s really interesting. I think if you asked most people, you know, what they thought of entrepreneurs, they would expect them to be out there. Extroverted. Yeah. Kind of leading from the front in a very visible, vocal way. So I think it’s really interesting that you found the right balance for you.

Stefan Debois [00:46:21]:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Otherwise you’re doing things that you’re not comfortable with. You’re trying to be a person that you maybe don’t want to be or that you have to force yourself to be, which leads to. Yeah, not to do. Right. Results, I think. And then also your level of happiness or.

Stefan Debois [00:46:44]:
I mean, I would feel a bit strange or like a bit like an actor or so by doing so.

Melody Moore [00:46:56]:
There’s something about doing it your way and doing it authentically that’s important, I think in general.

Stefan Debois [00:47:05]:
I think also if I learned something from. In business is that there are many parts to success. Although you get a lot of advice and some which is good, but there’s many parts to success. For example, it’s something different, but we, we had a discussion like from whether people have to work at home or not. And you see, like for example, Amazon has asked all their people to work five days in the office. Again, I mean this. And we have sometimes discussions about this in the management team. I mean, we do like two days at.

Stefan Debois [00:47:42]:
At the office and three days at home. Maybe we should have a little bit more at the office. You can discuss about it. But there’s companies that are successful that have just five days at home. Complete telework. Have companies, hundreds of persons who are successful in that way. And you have companies probably like Amazon or others who are also successful. And you have like five days at the office and then you have companies in between, also in the impulse, which are also successful.

Stefan Debois [00:48:09]:
There’s no one part to success. But if you define a policy, I think you have to explain why that is and you have to be very clear about it. You will attract some people and you will like not attract other people, which is perfectly fine, but you have to be conscious about it and it has to be deliberate because otherwise then it’s less optimal. I think, like with many things you can be successful in different ways.

Melody Moore [00:48:47]:
And also being clear about what it is you offer, it sounds like to the employees so that they can make that choice for themselves.

Stefan Debois [00:48:55]:
Yeah, that you have A clear profile also versus customers that you really. Because like the satisfaction surveys now also if customers ask that and we say okay, it’s possible with our tool, but we are not specialised in that. You cannot do everything otherwise it becomes like less clear for people who you are, what you stand for. And also internally it’s difficult to do everything because I mean requires much more resources.

Melody Moore [00:49:31]:
So that’s about your niche then defining.

Stefan Debois [00:49:34]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Melody Moore [00:49:36]:
And staying with it, it sounds like. So even if clients want you to expand out of it, it’s about being very honest about what you can and can’t do.

Stefan Debois [00:49:46]:
Yeah. So some things, when clients ask it, we will do it and some things we will not do. Of course saying just no to a client is difficult even if you don’t do it with your product and there’s maybe not a product that does it and that you can connect with your product or so not in favour of saying no to customers, you should always have an answer, but the answer might not be your product. Like in some cases that can be another product or wait to buy a software product. Because I mean software products don’t solve every problem in life or business. Although sometimes they. It seems that they do. But yeah, I mean, yeah, if you are clear, I think that that pays off in the long term.

Melody Moore [00:50:36]:
And what’s next for your business for you? Where’s it going?

Stefan Debois [00:50:45]:
Yeah, we try to have like decent organic growth between 20 and 30% per year and like to do that. We have identified now that next to. I mean we need some additional channels to client acquisition. We need more business with existing clients, with large existing clients such as Deloitte for example. And we need also more like leads that are independently of marketing that sales generates on their own. And we have more divi. We don’t have to stop the marketing needs of course, but then we have more diverse stores then next to that potentially also partner channel. So that’s, that’s on the acquisition side.

Stefan Debois [00:51:43]:
What is next on the product side? It’s probably integrations, AI and a renewed UI ux. So those are the priorities for one, two years to come. And I think, I mean we also, I think that would be very beneficial to our customers.

Melody Moore [00:52:08]:
Just on that you mentioned that AI, how do you see that playing out in your field?

Stefan Debois [00:52:17]:
Yeah, two things there. The first is AI for data analytics to allow our customers to get insights in the data in more human conversational way. The data that they collected. Yeah, that’s the first thing. And second thing is assistance with creating assessments and reports from AI. But then with that differentiation to ChatGPT because then you could say okay, why don’t you use ChatGPT that you have it secure, specialised and private. Yeah, so maybe start with the letter too like private that your data is not used to train like another LLM or whatever most customers. For most of us that’s an important requirement.

Stefan Debois [00:53:23]:
Specialised means that this bot is specialised in giving advice on how to create some questions or assessments or advice in assessment reports and you don’t have to train it to do that. It’s already trained by us and means also that it uses your data in the first place and then other data that is on the Internet or public sources in the second place. And I secure also that that’s almost Olympic minimum, that everything happens in a secure way that your data is not like exposed online or so I mean is request from our. I mean that’s an important requirement from our customers. If we can do these three things then we can do like a chatbot or copilot kind of thing in our tool then our people are our users will prefer that rather than chatgpt I think.

Melody Moore [00:54:25]:
Yeah, sounds great. Sorry, and I interrupted you. Was there something else you were talking about in terms of the product?

Stefan Debois [00:54:34]:
Yeah, the product is the UI ux. We have like a lot of functionalities but people are sometimes complaining that they don’t find back what they. I mean the right functionality for the use case. It’s not very easy to use so we have to work on that. And then the third one was integrations like integrating with all those tools. Now it’s like via Zapier, via third party tools. We won’t have native integrations with tools like HubSpot and Salesforce and so on.

Melody Moore [00:55:06]:
Yeah, I see a lot of that happening at the moment. A lot of the software I use is able to integrate with other software that I use, which is really helpful. Great. And another of my standard questions, what would be some advice you would give to your younger self?

Stefan Debois [00:55:29]:
Yeah, perhaps start building a network more sooner. And building a network can sound maybe also very daunting or very like out of your comfort zone. But it’s like things like for example invite ex colleagues for lunch or I mean it can be like smaller things, go to some events, but not like events where you don’t know like anybody but like that are interesting topic and where you go together with colleagues or friends. I mean these kind of things. And also like you can start building your network by giving away expertise for free, which I did not enough I think in the beginning so you always have an expertise and you can go online or also physical meetings, meetups, a lot of these things today just to talk about your expertise and then the network will come as a side product from that.

Melody Moore [00:56:39]:
It’s, it’s. You’re not the first person who’s. That’s been their advice to their younger self, which is interesting. And I consistently hear people say they don’t like networking. You know, if you have more of a preference for introversion, it may not be your initial natural place to go because it’s maybe less comfortable. What would you say to people who say I don’t like it?

Stefan Debois [00:57:05]:
Yeah, forget the word networking then because it’s, I mean maybe, yeah like a strange word or I mean, sometimes being misinterpreted. It’s about building relationships with people, professional relationships. And I think you build relationship by helping people without immediately asking something back. Help people for free. Like doing. Speaking at conference. Conference or small scale conference. I mean or meetups, like giving, like also on online forums, if that exists in your industry.

Stefan Debois [00:57:52]:
But in most domains it exists like giving help, offering help to people. If you don’t like to network, then you can do that and then the network will come as a side product, I think.

Melody Moore [00:58:06]:
I like that. I like that a lot. What about books? Do you have any books? Do you. Are you a big reader? Do you have any books you would recommend to people?

Stefan Debois [00:58:16]:
Yeah, I’m not that a lot of books but I don’t read all of them. But yeah, the book that I would recommend is still the one that I had a long time ago. It’s the Art of the Starts from Guy Kawasaki.

Melody Moore [00:58:32]:
I love him.

Stefan Debois [00:58:34]:
Yeah, yeah, he’s really nice. Also his podcasts or his YouTube videos and everything. It’s very entertaining. And yeah, the fact that you. At the start of a company, there’s a lot of things that you also don’t have to do. I mean keep it lean, I mean focus on the customer and I mean potentially things that now may seem like logical but also the way that he explains with the examples and everything, like have a mantra like a high of calling. So we, for us it’s like the democratisation of professional advice because we think our tool is, I mean our tool is of course what it is but what is behind is really when digitising professional advice, we want also to democratise it. For example by AstraZeneca pharmaceutical company does like assessments about asthma for patients.

Stefan Debois [00:59:40]:
But like in Belgium, like medical advice is quite democratised because going to the doctor, I mean it’s the Social Security pays it back. But a lot of countries that’s not the case. And then like an online assessment which gives you really. Because you have a lot of like information about medical things or health related matters on the Internet. But like when it’s from AstraZeneca, like really sound advice is worth, I mean a lot and it’s for free on the Internet. So that’s a way to democratise like medical advice in this case.

Melody Moore [01:00:23]:
I like that. How did you call it? A higher purpose, a mission.

Stefan Debois [01:00:28]:
Yeah, higher calling. So why do you do it? Yeah, we have two things like democratise the professional advice and then also like just being inspiration for other entrepreneurs because most of the software is B2B software is made still in the US but we want to prove that also in Europe we can make a company that can, yeah, can be a. An important player for in B2B software and can also sell to customers worldwide, including in the US, because 50% of our customers is there.

Melody Moore [01:01:08]:
For me, it was important that you were in the EU because of, you know, gdpr, understanding all of that. Some of what I collect is quite personal and I wanted to work with an organisation that knew and understood GDPR and wasn’t going to do anything crazy with the data that we were collecting. Final question. What would be a title for your story?

Stefan Debois [01:01:44]:
Maybe. Yeah, maybe something like a long, but something with long and determined and like it’s a long climb towards the, the top of the mountain, towards our goal. But. But we are determined to. To get here. Or maybe like calm and calm but determined. Something like that. That we are calm but we.

Stefan Debois [01:02:23]:
I mean that’s.

Melody Moore [01:02:24]:
Calm but determined. Is that what you said? I like that.

Stefan Debois [01:02:27]:
Yeah. Calm but determined. So those things doesn’t have to be like in conflict with each other.

Melody Moore [01:02:34]:
Yeah, I like that.

Stefan Debois [01:02:35]:
That we are determined to get there, but we are not nervous or something.

Melody Moore [01:02:41]:
Perfect. No, I love that. I think that’s a. That would make a nice. I use the. I actually use this as the title for your episode so I think Calm but Determined would make a nice title. So I just want to finish off by saying thank you. It’s been really, really interesting.

Stefan Debois [01:02:58]:
It’s.

Melody Moore [01:02:58]:
It’s interesting to hear about your company and how you started it all off, but also to hear about you and what’s been important to you and who’s inspired you. So I really do appreciate your time.

Stefan Debois [01:03:11]:
Thank you, Melody, for having me. And also to. To uncover a little bit more personal things because I have done other podcasts and mostly it’s more like purely about the business side of things, but here being able to talk about the personal things feels different and it’s nice to do. Thank you.

Melody Moore [01:03:33]:
Great, thank you.

Stefan Debois [01:03:36]:
This is the first time I’ve interviewed someone for the podcast where I am. A client of theirs.

Stefan Debois [01:03:43]:
So it was really interesting to talk to Stefan and to talk about PointerPro and some of their thinking from a client perspective, if nothing else.

Melody Moore [01:03:51]:
But I also really enjoyed understanding him.

Melody Moore [01:03:54]:
A bit better and understanding his entrepreneurial journey. There’s a couple things really stood out for me. The first was around, you know, the power of that teacher that he talked about initially and that got him into really enjoying maths and engineering and just, it’s come up so many times in the podcast is how teachers can have such a positive influence and a really strong influence on what we can do with our lives. And, and, you know, having a great teacher can really help you be interested in a subject and the, the. They change the trajectory of our lives because, you know, we, we may or may not be interested in something, but if they make it interesting and they make it real for us, then we become interested in that and that’s what we end up studying and that’s what we end up doing for a living. So I think, you know, the power of teachers, and as the daughter of a teacher, pressure, it’s something I think when we’re in school, we perhaps don’t appreciate and it’s only looking back, we realise how much influence that they’ve had. The second was about work, life, balance. And I thought it was very interesting, you know, that he said that one of the ways that he deals with the pressure is by doing things that are nothing to do with work.

Melody Moore [01:05:17]:
And we’re at the beginning of January here when I’m recording this, and I’ve been having a lot of conversations with my coaching clients about this and there’s a really common theme that I’m hearing from them at the moment about work just having taken up too much time and disproportionate amount of time, but also mental time and capacity and actually when it takes up too much time, it ends up becoming or feeling disproportionately important. So trying to have things in our lives that is not work, but also not trying to do everything, that’s what was also interesting that he talked about, is it can be just a stress and create just as much burnout by trying to do everything. So actually having some things outside of work that are important to you and things to do, but not actually then start beating yourself up about being able to do everything and see everybody and do everything. And it really made me think about the being free journal that I’ve developed and I’ve made available to people. And I’ll put a link to this in the show notes, because what it does is it gets you to. It’s got a balance wheel in it and it gets you to think about the different aspects of your life and how much in balance you are and where you want to focus and maybe create a little bit more balance. But one of the things that I’ve put in there is that you should only try and focus on one thing. So rather than saying, you know, there’s these half dozen areas of my life that I want to.

Melody Moore [01:07:06]:
To be focusing on, it’s like actually for the next four weeks I’m just going to focus on this one thing. So not trying to do everything, not trying to be everything, but let’s just take baby steps, microhabits that are going to, you know, build to a better and more balanced life. And then the final thing that I thought was really interesting with Stefan was the impact of his accident and the fact that he had an accident that meant that he spent a lot of time lying flat on his back and had a lot of time to think. And that really chimed with my experience, not of having an accident, but of leaving a very busy corporate job and going freelance and actually not working as hard, not working as long hours and having a lot more time, time, a lot less stress, a lot more time to go out and think about things, learn new things, you know, fill my brain with all sorts of interesting stuff. And, and what I found, and it was a complete surprise to me, was the impact that that’s had on my. Both on my stress levels and how relaxed and happy I feel, but also on my creativity and how actually creating time and creating space is what we need in order to really allow ourselves the freedom to think much more radically. And actually it links and comes up again, interestingly in the next podcast that, that we’re going to be putting out next week, which is with John Parkin. And we talk quite a lot about creativity in that.

Melody Moore [01:08:48]:
So make sure you tune in and listen to that one.

Melody Moore [01:08:54]:
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