Karen Hughes Podcast Transcript

Melody Moore [00:00:02]:
Welcome to the Secret Resume podcast. I’m Melody Moore, consultant, coach and all round curious human being. I’ve spent over 20 years helping leaders unlock potential – their own, their teams and their organisations. On this podcast we dive into our guests messy magical lives to hear the stories that don’t make it onto their resume or, or their LinkedIn profile, but shape who they really are at work and in life. Before we dive in, I want to tell you about something that I’m really excited about, which is our being free membership. We’re developing an online community which is designed for people who are interested in personal growth. If you’re navigating career transitions, maybe feeling stuck or burnt out or simply seeking more meaning in your life, then this is for you. Membership gives you access to a range of resources, a supportive community and monthly group coaching calls.

Melody Moore [00:01:00]:
It will allow you to explore what freedom means to you on your own terms. Head to www.liberareconsulting.co.uk being free to join the waitlist. So my guest today is Karen Hughes. Welcome Karen, lovely to see you.

Karen Hughes [00:01:21]:
Hello.

Melody Moore [00:01:22]:
And I would love for you to introduce yourself to the listeners before we get into your secret resume.

Karen Hughes [00:01:29]:
Yeah, fabulous. Well, first of all, thank you for inviting me on. I’ve. Yeah, it’s been fantastic actually, just thinking through what we’re going to talk about. So I look forward to it today. So. Yeah, so. So Karen Hughes, I’m what feels like quite an old lady these days but, but not too old and a mother of two teenage children, which makes me feel older every day as well.

Karen Hughes [00:01:59]:
And yeah, I worked in HR now in house for about 10 years. Before that I was in management consultancy, before that in retail and I guess I’d, I call myself that, you know, I’m a leader in hr. So I specifically at the moment working talent and organisation development for Genuit Group. But as we’ll talk about, I have quite a broad sort of background so kind of don’t like to pigeonhole myself too much.

Melody Moore [00:02:33]:
Brilliant. Yes. I think that comes from being a management consultant. We really rebel against being pigeonholed, I think. Okay, so let’s go right back to when you were at school. That’s the first thing we’re going to talk about, the kind of work experience that you had. So tell it, tell us a little bit about that.

Karen Hughes [00:02:53]:
So I grew up in the Midlands and went to a school that, you know, it wasn’t pretty middle of the road I would say in England, you know, it wasn’t affluent but, you know, but it certainly wasn’t you know, anything too difficult. But what was great, and I think there was a deputy head in the school that had a particular passion around work experience. And so I was, if you like, really lucky that I essentially, probably that time, were forced, let’s be honest, to go and do some work experience. And I ended up doing two lots. I did the first lot at British Sugar, of all things, and I used to have to get on my bike because it was in the middle of the countryside and ride out to a sugar factory. And I actually worked in the labs. Yeah, yeah. Doing all the tests on the sugar and all that kind of good stuff.

Karen Hughes [00:04:02]:
And then the second thing I did was I worked at Marks and Spencer doing, you know, all things across the shop floor, effectively. And I. And I really do. I talk about this quite a lot, actually, when I go into schools now as part of talent activity. That one. I was really lucky, I think, that I. I was in an environment that sort of pushed me to do that, because in both of those situations, I was thrust working with, you know, people from all different backgrounds and ages and. And all that sort of stuff, particularly at M and S, obviously I’m working with the general public and all that sort of stuff, but I also was doing a real job, you know, I was putting into practise what I was learning kind of at school.

Karen Hughes [00:04:50]:
And I suppose, particularly with the science piece, actually seeing that. Oh, yeah, people do actually use a Bunsen burner, you know, in a real job and, you know, things like that. So. So it was great. And I. But I would say is, for me now, when I look back, that set me on a road because I then went on to do business studies at A levels, where I was choosing what university and degree I wanted to do. I wanted to do something that was going to help me get me into sort of quite broad, sort of managerial sort of business. And I wasn’t sure what business, but that sort of type of role.

Karen Hughes [00:05:33]:
And so I went to Leeds and I did. I did do maths. I was good, good at maths. So I did that because my parents and everyone around me said, choose something that you’re actually gonna pass. Which was definitely good advice. Yeah. Especially as I did quite like going out at the time. And then also I did it with management as well.

Karen Hughes [00:05:54]:
So I sort of was combining things to help. Not that I still knew exactly what I wanted to do, of course, but what I want to do. And then actually, in my second year at university, I then did a final bit of what you definitely called work experience, but it was, it was paid and I went to America and I worked in like, it was a consultancy organisation actually, but it. Because they had like an exchange type programme for three months and, and worked, you know, in an office. I’m still not entirely sure what value I added, but I definitely was on projects and, and that kind of thing and all of that, I think instilled in me a wanton and a desire really to work in business and, and, yeah, and actually, and delivering. I, I enjoyed it effectively.

Melody Moore [00:06:50]:
Now I clearly I’m asking this for myself because my daughter’s got to do work experience this year, but just generally, what advice would you give to people who maybe are helping their kids think about what work experience to do?

Karen Hughes [00:07:05]:
I mean, I think there’s a couple of things. I think the first thing is you have to be quite realistic. So if you ignore the American one for a moment, both of those things I could, you know, like I say with the sugar factory, I got on a bike and went there, you know, I could do it all myself. I did not need a parent or anybody to get, get me there. And I think that’s really important because part of the work experience is you’re outside of the confines of the school environment and the parental environment. And I think, you know, with my own children, I think, you know, we generally now are far more worried about where they are and what they’re doing and tracking them on the phones and things. Whereas actually when you’re in work, you’ve got to stand on your own two feet. And I think the second thing is not to worry too much about what the actual job is.

Karen Hughes [00:07:59]:
So again, we’re probably now trying to, you know, so perhaps somebody wants to work in hr. Well, go experience hr. Well, great. But actually just experience being in an office environment or being with a sales type environment when you’re out with customers and things is so alien to children effectively. And I think it, it start. It’ll make them understand the, the change that will happen when they move out of education. Yeah. And then I think any employer actually these days that is prepared to do it is probably one that you’d want to encourage your child to go and experience you.

Karen Hughes [00:08:43]:
I don’t think longer the days where, you know, people would, you know, have, oh, well, let’s get a work experience person in for a bit of free labour. You know that I don’t generally think that happens these days.

Melody Moore [00:08:55]:
Okay, brilliant, thank you. So you used, you mentioned then you’d, you’d gone to university, you studied, you did your maths you did business.

Karen Hughes [00:09:07]:
Yeah.

Melody Moore [00:09:07]:
You ended up working in retail. How did that happen?

Karen Hughes [00:09:13]:
So the work experience I just mentioned before in America ended as I went into my third year and that’s when the typical milk rounds and all that kind of activity and still happens, I believe happened for me. And I was really lucky. So I came off that internship and they offered me a job. And Mel, you know me, and you’re going to laugh when you hear what the job was. So it was a graduate job, but it was to become an IT coder. That’s. That’s everybody who went in as a graduate, that’s what they did first. And yeah, I mean, I was quite pleased with myself that I’d passed everything that they thought that I could do it.

Karen Hughes [00:09:55]:
But, yeah, that. That definitely. Anyone who knows me sat in front of a computer and doing coding is probably would last about 24 hours. So. But, you know, obviously I said, oh, yes, that’d be lovely, while I didn’t have another job. And then I went to lots of different, you know, sort of presentations and things and I. It’s really interesting because I happened upon, you know, this was before, obviously, full Internet days and things that the M S scheme. And of course I’d done work experience at M S.

Karen Hughes [00:10:26]:
My mom, actually, when I grew up, was a supervisor for Marks and Spencers and so I, you know, I started to think, oh, actually this. This could be quite good. And it was a general management, store management programme. I do like a bit of shopping that has continued. And I thought, you know, I’ll go for it now. This is where my competitive nature comes in as well. Because at the time, the M S graduate scheme was probably one of the most sought after. You know, they had thousands of candidates for every opportunity.

Karen Hughes [00:10:58]:
So I. I kind of thought, well, if I’m going to do it, I’ll do the best. And so I had a go and quite surprised myself, actually, that I got through for an interview and then at the interview, it turned out that it was the regional director for the Telford area, where I grew up and where I had done the work experience. So he sort of laughed out loud when I. Because I hadn’t put it on my application that I’d done that. It was. He just thought it was really funny. But, yeah, I was successful and I got through and that meant that I moved to Manchester.

Karen Hughes [00:11:34]:
So, yeah, just turned up one day at Ham 14, a very nice shop at Wilmsley where the Beckhams used to shop. That was one of my first jobs, was doing a Personal shop for Victoria Beckham’s Easter party. She was having. So a massive, massive chocolate bunny. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. They’re very lucky.

Karen Hughes [00:11:58]:
They only used to make a few. Yeah. And it was fabulous. Absolutely fabulous. Grounding. What I learned in those first six to nine months on that programme about people leadership, you know, how to think about how you interact, because you’re interacting both with a vast employee base as well as customer base. You know, having to be on the returns desk, because this is pretty. Any online portals or anything.

Karen Hughes [00:12:30]:
Obviously at Christmas they used to do that on purpose to the graduates. You’d have to man the returns desk. Yeah. You saw everything and had to manage everything. Dealing with difficult conversations, sacking employees, recruiting employees. We went through a redundancy round. So all of that side was fabulous grounding and then the other side of it, the commercial side of it. So learning at the time, you know, about how to visually merchandise the store, how you understood about people’s psychology of how they buy things, why they do, was fascinating.

Karen Hughes [00:13:14]:
And, yeah, then from a food perspective, the turnover, the shrink, you know, where you lose money and everything was. Yeah, it was great. And I. And. And it’s awful because at the time, Ms. Probably wasn’t doing very well. In fact, it wasn’t as an overall organisation. But actually, for me, it didn’t matter because I was learning, learning all the real basics.

Melody Moore [00:13:38]:
Did you appreciate that at the time, or do you think it’s, with hindsight you’ve realised what an amazing opportunity it was?

Karen Hughes [00:13:46]:
I understood some of it because I knew what some of my other friends were doing in their sort of graduate training. And I think, yeah, I could. I could understand that perhaps the things I was, you know, the investment, if you like, they gave into the graduate resources was. Was very different to other organisations. But certainly it took quite some time. For me, it was probably when I joined consultancy that I really understood the grounding that I’d had.

Melody Moore [00:14:18]:
I was a graduate trainee in the NHS in Wales and I definitely didn’t appreciate at the time the amazing. Even just like, the learning and development that you offered. I’ve never been offered anything like that since. Like the amount of development and the opportunities that we got, you know, to mingle with all the chief execs. You know, you’d go to these events and it’d be the chief execs and the graduate trainees. Like, incredible opportunity to. That you never get after that. It’s a really privileged position often, I think, and people don’t realise at the time the opportunities and the privilege that they’ve got.

Karen Hughes [00:15:03]:
And I also think when I look back, the trust they put into people with very little work experience was significant. So, you know, I joined in the September at the Christmas I was given that the food section of ham 14 to run for Christmas.

Melody Moore [00:15:26]:
Wow.

Karen Hughes [00:15:27]:
And this is, this at the time was a store, you know, that it was turning over millions of pounds a week. It was, you know, it was the biggest turnover shop outside of, you know, Oxford Street. Yeah. Crazy. Crazy when you think about it. I mean, obviously there was other leaders around to support you, but the people on the shop floor, you know, the people on the tills and everything else, they were looking to you to give them direction. And you know, to a certain extent, what did, what did I know? You know, and I was still going out, you know. Yeah.

Karen Hughes [00:16:03]:
Friday night, rolling in on Saturday morning, drinking my Lucas. I mean, it’s brightening. Really. Yeah. And. And to be honest, there are a couple of things that happened that will always stick with me. And one of the. My, my husband who knew me then talks about it, so.

Karen Hughes [00:16:21]:
And one of them is that. So I moved to be a store the store manager of Macclesfield and Buxton stores, which were like high street type stores, and, and the Macclesfield store, I mean, I was, what was I, 23, something like that? 24. And the, the average age in that shop must have been like between 40 and 50. Other than the sort of Saturday team. I’d go out on a Saturday night and I’d bump into the majority of the younger workforce at work. For me, you know, it was a really odd situation. I walked in and there was a manager, store manager’s dining room that I was meant to sit and eat my lunch on my own. In all really crazy things like this, which obviously I just completely changed overnight.

Karen Hughes [00:17:08]:
Like I just had my own office. I was like, I don’t want an office, I’m a store manager. I want to be on the shop floor to turn that into a training room or something. And it was just all very odd, actually. And there was a. But there was a few things. And one of those experiences there was I went to the good old customer service desk and I was talking to a customer about an issue. But at the time I was also one eye watching what a couple of the assistants were doing.

Karen Hughes [00:17:39]:
And they’re essentially putting receipts into a drawer. And I’ll never forget this. And after the customer gone, I said, well, what are you doing? Like what, what’s what you doing? This process. And they’re explaining what they were doing about putting these receipts in this drawer. And I said, what happens to them then? Don’t know. I was like, well, we haven’t got hundreds of years worth of receipts. Somebody must do something with them. Like, what are they Didn’t.

Karen Hughes [00:18:06]:
Didn’t know this process. So. And I was genuine asking because for interest. Anyway, so we followed it, you know, come on. You know, off we went and spoke to supervisor and literally I ended up in the back office of this. This store and there’s boxes of these receipts. Anyway, end up phoning somebody at head office about this thing. So, yeah, you know, and they just went.

Karen Hughes [00:18:27]:
That process stopped about 20 years ago. And I was like, oh, oh, wow. But what I actually learned there, and it has stayed with me always, is it’s okay to ask the stupid question. And if you don’t ask it, perhaps nobody else ever will. And there probably isn’t a week that goes by. And again, Mel, you. You know me well from working with me. That.

Karen Hughes [00:18:55]:
That’s probably a little bit of where I talk. If people say, you know, what are you good at? Is I genuinely are not embarrassed to ask a question. And. And a lot of people say, oh, you’re really brave. And I. But I don’t see it as being brave. I just go as well, I don’t know. And I look around the room and I think.

Karen Hughes [00:19:15]:
I don’t think you all know either. So I’ll ask it.

Melody Moore [00:19:18]:
Yeah, there’s so much assumption made, isn’t there? And there’s so much time wasted and things going in the wrong direction because everybody’s assuming, you know, I’ll work with teams and, you know, what’s the team’s vision and purpose? And everybody goes, well, we all know what it is. And then when you ask them 20 different answers because they don’t. And there’s so much assumption made because people don’t ask because everybody thinks everybody sees the world like themselves.

Karen Hughes [00:19:56]:
Yeah. And then the other thing I learned in that store was to. To really trust myself and my gut instinct, which I think I haven’t always, if I’m being honest. And I think sometimes as I’ve got older, I’ve allowed, you know, other. Perhaps it’s having children and things like that. I don’t know, have changed me sometimes. But often when I go back to. But really, what do I think? I’m probably not far off.

Karen Hughes [00:20:29]:
So there was a lady there, a supervisor, you know, she was a senior person, effectively, who’d again work their years. And she was stealing and had been stealing for A long time. And I sort of noticed something and thought, you know, Spidey senses is what I would say when this is. There’s just something not right. And then asked, yeah, again, you know, someone outside the organisation and they put in like a bit of a covert thing. So I just said, I. I don’t. I just don’t think something.

Karen Hughes [00:21:01]:
There’s something going on here. Yeah. And unfortunately we had to dismiss it, which was my first dismissal which wasn’t easy, never fun. And someone who had been there a long time.

Melody Moore [00:21:14]:
What was. What was the Spidey sense like? What was. What was it you noticed?

Karen Hughes [00:21:19]:
It was behaviour and it was. Yeah, this sort of the lack of eye contact at times, talking about things. This individual, quite possibly because I was starting to ask questions about process and things, because I could, you know, once I’d had a little tug on something, I could see some things perhaps weren’t quite right and I think they got a bit nervous and, you know. Yeah, I was going to ask. Ask questions, perhaps other people don’t ask. So, yes, it was that sort of, yeah, body language, behaviours, just. Just not normal, essentially. Which is an odd word, I know.

Karen Hughes [00:22:10]:
Yeah, no, but. But the interesting thing about that was the Spidey sensor thing, doing the dismissal, which still will always stick with me because it was the first, but then what happened afterwards. So I used to park my car around the back of the store with a couple of other people and over the period of about six weeks, every time I went back to my car, a car tire was slashed.

Melody Moore [00:22:37]:
Gosh.

Karen Hughes [00:22:40]:
You know, once a week, sort of, not obviously every day. And so again, the end, we had cameras and you know, all that kind of thing. But. But the bigger issue was that the people in the store thought it was my fault this person went. And of course, because it’s a dismissal, as, you know, you can’t. You’re not going to go out and announce and all this kind of thing. And we’d taken the decision not to involve the police and all that kind of thing and that then that. That’s the next learning really was about resilience and, you know, then having to really be the store manager, so stepping up lead.

Karen Hughes [00:23:20]:
And that’s when. Then if I went into a pub at a weekend and there were some people there from work, I was like, we have to leave, I can’t. I have to have space. And there are so many times now that I talk to leaders and be coaching people and one of the things. And I’m not sure if you. It happens with you is I say you have to have space, space between you and your team. You’re not in the team, you’re not. And that’s really hard for people, actually.

Melody Moore [00:23:48]:
Yeah. Especially if they’ve been promoted from within that team. I think that’s really difficult.

Karen Hughes [00:23:54]:
Yes.

Melody Moore [00:23:54]:
I just wrote, and I’ve been writing a few blog articles for my website recently and I just wrote one on whether line managers can be coaches because a lot of people will, you know, coaching for line managers is a very popular topic, but actually I think there are too many sort of potential challenges. You can’t be a true coach and a line manager because you’re also a performance manager. And actually coaching is about people being vulnerable and sharing all sorts of things. And as if you’re performance managing someone or making decisions about who’s going to get promoted or what have you, you kind of don’t really want to know all of that stuff that someone might tell a coach because it muddies things and some people might be more honest than others and you know that about them, but you don’t know about someone else who’s maybe chosen not to be so honest with you. So I have a few that you can use a coach coaching style but you can’t actually be a coach to your team because you’ve got to have that separation.

Karen Hughes [00:25:07]:
Yeah, I completely agree. And yeah, multiple probably examples where people go, yeah, too far and then that. And exactly as you said about the performance management, it then becomes so difficult to do it either way, it becomes difficult to praise people because, well, you’re just a mate so you don’t take it in the same way.

Melody Moore [00:25:30]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Interesting. So tell me about why you moved out of retail. What. What caused you to go and do something else?

Karen Hughes [00:25:41]:
So I did move from M S to Tesco and in Tesco, the last sort of role that I did in store still, but was as opening up the really big extra shops that they were doing at the time and putting in non food. So effectively I was supporting store managers who had only ever really sold steak and bread and beans to sell ladies clothing, tellies, greetings cards that were more profitable than anything else they had in the shop. And so it was a big change management job really. I mean, lots of practical stuff, don’t get me wrong, and sort of commercial, but lots, lots of change. And so when I was thinking about moving away from the role I was doing and at the time Tesco wanted me to move to London and do sort of like a director sort of programme that wasn’t something I wanted to do. I was going to get married. I knew I wanted to have a family and that of sort, sort of thing and I was quite exhausted. So I’ve been working not 24, seven, that’s dramatic but you know, a lot of hours doing night shifts, you know, weekends and I just, I just wanted to do something a bit different and I wanted to explore perhaps different sectors but I didn’t really know what, where to go, what to do.

Karen Hughes [00:27:08]:
And at the time someone in HR actually I was catching up with them and they said you should think about management consultancy because they could see that a lot of what I was doing was sort of what consultants potentially could do. So I explored it. I did go for interviews other retailers but I felt every time I’d come away and I felt I’m just, I’m. I’m still in a better organisation and in a better job than what they’re offering me. And so I ended up at hey group. I did go for interviews with the bigger at the time consultancy organisations but interestingly, although I’d been at like big organisations, Tesco, you know, what have you been? One of the biggest, even at the time you never felt like a number because you were in a store and in very people orientated business and some of these bigger consultancies. I’d go to the interview and I literally came away feeling it was quite sterile and formal and again, you know, that is just not me. I knew that is what I’d flourish in.

Karen Hughes [00:28:26]:
And just from the interviews at a group I kind of knew this was a lot more of a family kind of orientated and for all of its kind of, you know, lack of structure at time and processes and things, it certainly made up for in personality if you will. And everybody I met I just kind of thought oh gosh, yes, I’d love to spend more time with you. You know, everyone had a personality, let’s put it like that, which was great.

Melody Moore [00:28:56]:
Yeah, I did the same actually. I remember going to, I didn’t apply but I went to like an open event evening. So when I was doing my Masters and I went to an open evening, I think it was Anderson Consulting then. And I just came out thinking that is not for me. Everybody seemed the same, they all had this kind of secret language they were using, you know, and, and I was just like this really isn’t for me, you know.

Karen Hughes [00:29:28]:
No. And this is, you know, awful because I certainly, you know, I’ve been a consultant, you’ve been a consultant, you know, I wouldn’t Want to consultant bash, sort of in that way. But the worst thing in the world for me would be to go home to family and friends and say I’m a consultant and them to roll their eyes and. All right, yeah, one of those that’s going to come and bring us a massive PowerPoint deck that no one ever looks at, but coffee us a fortune, you know. Yeah. And. And I do genuinely believe in the. The jobs that I was involved in.

Karen Hughes [00:30:05]:
Did you know, at Hay Group and then Corn Ferry, that just wasn’t the case, which I’m, you know, proud and pleased about.

Melody Moore [00:30:14]:
So you joined the Hay Group Manchester office.

Karen Hughes [00:30:17]:
I did.

Melody Moore [00:30:18]:
And ended up very quickly being, you know, using your managerial skills internally as well as with your clients.

Karen Hughes [00:30:27]:
Yes. And that was a very interesting time. So the, you know, the first week, I can remember it now, turning up to the office, which of course for me was very odd because I’d. All my working life I’d been going into stores to lots of people, lots of buzz. You know, you sit in the meeting room but you’d go out on the shop floor and. And because I was literally just in an office with about five people and, you know, laptops. And so that was just all very strange. And yes, being on a laptop all the time, like, I just.

Karen Hughes [00:31:05]:
Just wasn’t using. Used to using computers that much. And in that way I had a BlackBerry and things like that, but I didn’t have, you know, I did have a laptop, but not in that way. Now what was really lucky for me is we had about four, four, I think maybe five actually, partners and directors working from Manchester and they kind of scooped me up and sort of went, come on, come out with me for the day. You know, so sort of. Sort of showed me the other side of consultancy and. And of course, I love that. And very quickly, you know, I’d go with them and I’d be like, you want me to write those notes up? Or, you know, because I genuinely, you know, this is my.

Karen Hughes [00:31:46]:
I want to help, I want to do things I want to get stuck in. So. So I did. And. And then I had my first moment of, have I done the right thing? Because I. I suddenly realised that probably my lack of using computers or anything like that for quite a while is I probably lost my ability to write anything down in a coherent way. I mean, I’ve since found out through having children that I’m, you know, I should have been diagnosed as dyslexic in school and I think that really came out in consultancy. But, you know, Being typical Karen, I stuck with it.

Karen Hughes [00:32:27]:
I got the feedback and I, I taught myself really how to, how to write proposals and respond to clients and, and that kind of thing. But it, but that was quite a. A moment, you know, of have I done the right thing here? So if that was my, oh, can I really do this? What I absolutely saw I could help with was two things. So one lesson. The person who was managing the office at the time clearly did not know how to people manage and. Or just didn’t want to. So we’re very good at consulting in it, but having to talk to people, for example about turning up to meetings or asking them for delivering work and that just was not something they wanted to do. They did not want to have those difficult conversations, basic things like facilities.

Karen Hughes [00:33:16]:
So I asked a question about like fire, like what happens if there’s a fire? Having been in retail and doing these things just off the bat, they sort of looked at me interestingly, two years later we had a massive flood. So it’s a good job. We did have then an emergency plan of what we’d do and how we contact people. So it was real basic things like that that I thought, well, I can definitely add value here because this is what I do with bread and butter. And so having been asked then once they cottoned onto this a couple of times to effectively sub in for the leader, run meetings, have difficult conversations with colleagues and that kind of thing and actually we made somebody redundant when I, within the first few months of being there, obviously nothing to do with me, decision wise, but I effectively took over and delivered the process because no one else wanted to do it. I was asked to, you know, perhaps, you know, would I be interested in sort of stepping up and leading and, and in consultancy. That’s a really nice thing. And particularly in hey group there was no real hierarchy in that sense.

Karen Hughes [00:34:29]:
It didn’t matter that there were people obviously first of all earning, gosh, I don’t know how many more times my salary than I was on, but also really experience your partners in the business. But they wanted me to manage it. People manage it because they recognise they just didn’t really have those skills or want to do that. And I thought, wow, that’s, that’s great actually. And then the second thing is, at the time the Manchester office had probably lost its way a bit around sort of sales. So they were very good at delivering lots of very loyal clients, but they weren’t so great at like turning over the sales as they needed to, to hit. Quite frankly, it was A business, right? You know, it wasn’t a charity. We had to make money.

Karen Hughes [00:35:19]:
And so I, I pulled out my commercial knowledge that I think I hadn’t actually recognised I even have. I think I just didn’t think of myself like that as a salesperson, you know, just wouldn’t be something. If I looked in the mirror, I’d have said, but boy did I realise I could. So when I started talking to them about profit margins on things, you know, how would they, how are they costed proposals, which ones were they spending time on? So if they were going to travel halfway across the country for a meeting, what’s the likelihood of getting that work, you know, and all these sorts of things. And do you know what, by the end of that year, we’d made more money than they had done in the last kind of couple. And it was at that point the then regional leader said, come on, Karen, can you do this properly, full time, please? So I did that along, learning the ropes of methodology to actually be a consultant as well.

Melody Moore [00:36:22]:
I remember when I joined, I joined from a much smaller consultancy where, you know, you counted the pennies much more and you’re, you’re involved in everything when you work for a small organisation. And, you know, we were, I’ve done work looking at what was the most profitable types of work and, you know, we were doing total time recording and all of that. And I remember going to hey Group and saying, why aren’t we doing total time recording? And they were like, well, you know, well, if someone’s on a train then they can be doing some other work. And I was like, that’s not. You need to know how much time it takes to deliver each piece of work so you can work out where you’re most profitable. Also, you can’t always work when you’re on a train, particularly if you stood up, because it’s really busy and, you know, all of that. But it was years before we moved to actually recording our time properly so that we knew where we were actually spending our time. And it wasn’t about punishment and keeping track on people, it was about profit.

Melody Moore [00:37:22]:
Like, where are you actually? But yeah, it was funny, wasn’t it? I never expected, coming from a small, you know, tiny consultancy going into a big global one, that I’d be asking questions around profitability and being told not to be. Not to stop asking the question, don’t worry about it. Funny, you then left Hay Group Kornferry as it became to go, as I was going to say, poacher turned gamekeeper. Or is it the other way around if you’re going into consulting anyway and you left to, to go and have a proper job again, not being a consultant. What, what caused you to leave? And, and you know what, what was attractive about your new role to you?

Karen Hughes [00:38:16]:
Yeah, so I’d Corn Ferry bought Hay Group and I remember at the time when it happened and I think it again, a good experience and obviously you experience to go through that of being acquired and I’m sure learn some of the things not to do, but also, you know, what to do and that kind of thing. And I said at the time to then, you know, head of the UK and that, that I would definitely stay whatever happens, I would stay for a year, see it all through and, you know, just, just not make any great big decisions or anything like that. However, even if the Korn Ferry thing hadn’t happened, I definitely had started to get a bit of itchy feet because I felt that I was perhaps starting to repeat work, you know, and, you know, back to my sort of retail sort of days and things. You know, I. I enjoy a bit of difference and of course still unbelievable amounts of opportunities and consultancy, but also had to, you know, young children and I. I just was starting to think maybe is it. Do I want to do something slightly different? I also recognised in myself I was, particularly with the acquisition I was getting a bit frustrated about things and I know I’m very self aware that when I start to get like that, it’s probably not great for everybody around me. So, you know, sort of the signals will flag in a bit.

Karen Hughes [00:39:50]:
Maybe it’s just time, you know, to move on. And then an opportunity presented itself at United Utilities and a lady called Sally Cabrini came into my life and is a wonderful person. She was doing a very broad role in the organisation, not just hr and you know, it was an opportunity, as you say, to really practise what I preach. So could I actually, you know, support a team to deliver in house and obviously make some changes, improve things for the employees from the inside rather than the outside. And, you know, I’m really pleased with what happened there. The people that I met, you know, the team that had there still pretty much in contact with all of them, you know, a fabulous team. So interesting though, because I had gone from, as you know, in consultancy, complete flexibility. Certainly weren’t in the office every day, all that kind of thing.

Karen Hughes [00:40:58]:
Didn’t have an office as such. I remember walking into the United Utilities office environment, which was open plan, obviously I’d seen all of that in interviews and things like that, but then had been given an office, which I just thought was really funny and. Yeah, so. But that was a learning, I think, then, for me to really understand the culture of an organisation and where it’s at versus perhaps what you want and you need. And then I think the second thing that dropped with me was about a week or so in, it really wasn’t very long. I remember talking to one of the team lady that, yeah, talked about, talk with still all the time. And I went. I just realised I don’t make any money.

Karen Hughes [00:41:47]:
So I’m doing all the, you know, I’m doing the doing. I’m. I’m helping and supporting, but basically I’m a cost strain in an organisation rather than adding to. And that is genuinely. And maybe I should have thought about it before, but I’d really not thought about that. And I still think to this day I struggle with that because. So, you know, just this week in my current role, you know, we were talking about budgets and things and it’s. It’s not a guilt about spending money, you know, it’s things that the business wants to invest in, it wants to deliver.

Karen Hughes [00:42:25]:
But I feel like. But I should be. I should be adding and topping it up, not just taking. I mean, I love to spend a bit of money, this is true, but.

Melody Moore [00:42:34]:
You know, don’t we all like to earn it first?

Karen Hughes [00:42:38]:
Yeah, yeah. And I still think, you know, psychologically, for me that’s quite tough, which is why I go after HR and everything I do in my space in a really, you know, I try anyway, a really sort of commercial way. You know, what. What’s the outcome if we do this? What outcome are we looking for? How does this help the business deliver the strategy it’s doing? Back to the thing I said right at the beginning about asking the stupid question, you know, why. Why even bother? You know, like, why do we have this whole team? Like, what’s. What’s all this work for? Don’t just keep doing it because we’ve always done it. And I think, you know, the. The lady that I met there, Sally, really helped.

Karen Hughes [00:43:29]:
You know, she is someone who I think has worked like that her whole life. She definitely did not think of herself as a HR person, you know, even though, you know, she had a far more traditional background than I. She went at things from. She was a business leader and that’s what we were here to do. So where we were working together on things like HR strategy or things like that, you know, that’s where we were coming from. And I am so pleased and grateful that I had that time with her. She then moved on to do other things because I think she then showed me that it is possible to be in a business and behave in HR in that way. And I still see so many examples through networks and otherwise where HR doesn’t have the seat at the table.

Karen Hughes [00:44:21]:
Like that isn’t seen as contributing to the value in the business. It is seen as a, well, we’ve got to have it because there’s employment.

Melody Moore [00:44:32]:
Law and about compliance.

Karen Hughes [00:44:35]:
Yeah.

Melody Moore [00:44:37]:
If someone in HR doesn’t have, you know, you had a lot of business experience. Experience a lot of, you know, being in the business, this was your first HR role. What, what would you say to them in terms of making sure that they can have that commercial conversation? They haven’t got your background, so how do they, how do they equip themselves to have that more commercial focus?

Karen Hughes [00:45:01]:
Yeah, I think, I think people knew coming in, it’s easier than perhaps people who’ve been in a role for some time because then you’ve picked up habits, you’ve picked up ways of thinking and, and also people start to become used to the way that you operate. So I think that’s difficult. But I think if you’re starting a new role though, in a new business, you can reinvent yourself. So there’s that opportunity and anyone new coming in definitely can. And I think it starts with. It’s that. All that first impression stuff. So the first question, question you ask someone, you know, how you’ve.

Karen Hughes [00:45:39]:
If they, they come to talk to you about a problem or an issue, how, how do you go at it? So do you go at it in a compliance, here’s your choices, legislative type manner or do you go, well, what is the real problem? You know, why is this a problem? How is it hurting the business? How is this stopping you from being able to do whatever it is. Maybe it’s having more customer conversations or whatever it may be. Yeah, you’re right. You don’t need to have run a P L you, you don’t need to have done all that to just ask some very basic questions first and almost like hold back from going straight into solving the problem, which might be achingly obvious, to be honest, which is quite difficult. But getting that business context of why is whatever we’re talking about a problem. Something in my role today, one of the reasons I moved to genuine was because it was an opportunity to set up, you know, talent, performance, learning from scratch really. Because although big organisation did have lots in place but in pockets across the organisation, it’s an opportunity to sort of put a new group approach in. And that’s been great because we’ve been able to do the.

Karen Hughes [00:47:10]:
Well, we’re not just gonna put in what everybody expects. You know, let’s learn the lessons of all different organisations. Let’s listen to what the business genuinely needs now and in the future and design something that rather than just doing what we’ve always done or everyone anticipates. So yes, I think, yeah, new person in or if you’re starting out, it’s the ask a question about why did you know.

Melody Moore [00:47:41]:
And what that strikes me is that you’re using consulting skills there because that’s what you do as a consultant, isn’t it? You don’t go in straight away and give them the question, or at least you shouldn’t and most don’t. You go in and ask a whole load of questions and understand the context rather than just being the expert, I suppose.

Karen Hughes [00:48:01]:
Yes, yes. And I think that comes back to again, that self assurance that again it’s okay to ask the question and I think for some people, and I have said this to some folk in HR before, is you have to see it as part of your job to understand the business and also to, you know, to, in order to be able to provide the expertise. Yes, you are there as a subject matter expert, without a doubt. But that’s not the, you know, that’s the, the only thing that gets you to the table. But I think that’s, that’s also hard for people in finance jobs. Yes, it jobs. You know, I don’t think HR is on its own.

Melody Moore [00:48:51]:
No, absolutely not. Talk to me about your role. After United Utilities, you went to National Grid. Tell me, you know, why does that stand out for you? Why is that one of the things.

Karen Hughes [00:49:06]:
That you’ve seen chosen so National Grid has. Will always be in my heart. I think because I spent so long in their business both when I was a consultant, so I saw it from the outside and supported them on numerous sort of organisation change and transformation activity. And then I had the opportunity to go in house which was kind of like one of those way too good an opportunity to miss. And it stands out because aside from the more day job activity that I did around like organisation design, engagement work and all that kind of stuff, which was really interesting and really good is just as we were about to go into Covid, which obviously none of us knew what was going to happen there, there had been a big piece of work completed by the board and the exec around the overall sort of strategy and then operating model of the business. And there was this wonderful line in One of the PowerPoint slides that said, I remember talking to the consultants at the time that had been brought in to do it that said, you know, but the question is, you might want to do all of these things and make these changes. Have you got the culture in place to deliver it? And they were really quite pointed about it and I, when I was talking to them about, I was like a bit like hallelujah. Because as I’d supported them for a number of years and you know, successful business obviously, but it was kind of always this thing that they never kind of invested enough in the that side of it.

Karen Hughes [00:50:55]:
So the behaviour, the people, the change element as well as the hard stuff. But as always, I said, this is still a line on the bottom. Is anyone going to look at this? How do we get them to look at this first before everything else? And I think at the same time the CEO and others were kind of, you know, also sort of thinking the same of, we’ve been here before, you know, so how are we going to be. Do, do a better job of being successful than we have before? How do we really turn the dial? And at the time, a company called Spencer Stewart, which I had, to be honest, I hadn’t really come across outside of recruitment before, were asked to do like a culture survey type piece with some senior leaders and the results were utterly staggering. It didn’t say anything different than I knew, but it was one of those classic, really good to have an independent view. But what was interesting was, and why it always stands out to me is these consultants rang me up so they get the results. Remember, I’ve been on the other side before, so I kind of know what it’s like when you see results to do with the client, whatever, and they ring me up and they go, karen, Karen, there’s something. This can’t be right.

Karen Hughes [00:52:10]:
And I was like, why? Why? What does it say? And they went, well, they say that it’s more slow and difficult to make decisions in National Grid than it is in the US Federal bank, which is like one of the most, you know, massive government institutions ever. And you know, they’ve done this sort of research in lots of organisations. I went, oh no, that’s exactly what it feels like. Yeah, every day, every day. And so that, that piece of insight though, which we cut and, and all that kind of thing, but we’re really brave. This is back to the asking the question, putting your Head above the parapet. So, you know, go into the exec and saying, so this is reality. And we all know this because we all feel of it every day.

Karen Hughes [00:52:57]:
And I’d put lots of examples of things they’d all sort of said, so is that the culture that’s going to deliver that strategy? No. Okay, but it’s a massive tanker. You’re never going to change it all overnight. Right? So just let’s be realistic. You’ve also tried to do this lots of times before. You’ve paid me before externally to try this before, you know, so we’re gonna have to do it differently. We’re gonna have to be brave. We’re gonna have to do it differently.

Karen Hughes [00:53:26]:
Now I’d say I was really, again, lucky at the time. HR leader had come into the business, guy called Andy Doyle, who said he sort of gave it as a project to myself and another colleague and went, right, just go off, have some time, you know, don’t, don’t pace it and really think about what, what would, would genuinely take to make it change, you know, use your experiences and all of that. And. And we sort of came back and we went, well, the first thing is we need to do it ourselves. So we’ve got to sack all the consultants because it don’t work. We’ve got to do it from the inside, got to really work out here. So the consultants have helped, you know, people outside have helped us understand the problem and all of that, but we, for us to really work out what’s getting in the way and because everybody says they want the change, but why, why can’t we? And by the way, the people who say they want the change, is everybody in authority in this business? So all these leaders had come out saying, happy to work here, love working here, but God, it’s hard work. And it was like, but.

Karen Hughes [00:54:31]:
But you’re in the position to change it. So if you don’t change it, how is everyone else going to change it? So loads of interviews, focus groups and that kind of thing. And we came to the conclusion that there was three things we needed to do. And since then, which all happened during COVID these three buckets is how I’ve gone about any other change I’ve done within business. And I keep. It’s really interesting because I keep seeing it all the time now elsewhere. And the ingredients, if you like, are three things. And the first is you’ve got to do the big things.

Karen Hughes [00:55:06]:
You’ve got to be brave, you’ve got to go out and you’ve got to Say it. So an example of that would be that the CEO kind of went out and was honest with the leadership team and said, we have to. We have to change and we’re gonna change and it’s going to be my legacy that we’re gonna do this, you know, and sort of some of the stuff. So they used to have like, culture traits and ornaments. Some of this stuff that’s right at the bottom. Bottom forgot to bring to the top. But that means you’ve got to stop doing things, you’ve got to displace it. You don’t just start doing things, you have to displace it.

Karen Hughes [00:55:42]:
No one has any more time, energy, resources, you’ve got to displace it. So we’ve got to choose what we displace. And that’s massive, isn’t it, as a leader, to go out there and say it. They did things like they had two values, we created a third one and they went massive on that, you know, going out into the business, internally, externally, you know, where we said, you know, we were going to make changes. So the values, again, were a wonderful example of that. So we said, we’re going to stop all the red tape, we’re going to stop all the everything going to committees and hierarchies. So when it came to the values, I presented them to the executive team, of course, but then went, but you don’t get to change them. So this is.

Karen Hughes [00:56:32]:
This is what the team have said. We took. They. They obviously were part of the process, gave their thoughts and views, but then this is it. So here’s you role modelling the new behaviours as you don’t get to now do what you normally do and red tape it and. All right, okay. And actually it’s fine. But also because.

Karen Hughes [00:56:51]:
And we had this wonderful phrase, progress over perfection.

Melody Moore [00:56:57]:
Lovely.

Karen Hughes [00:56:58]:
So it might not be 100%, but it’s okay because it’s not turning on the electricity for a whole grid. Yeah. It’s values in a business. Let’s just have a reality check here. You know, it’s. It’s not saving somebody from dying, it’s values. Yeah. And that became a mantra for everything.

Karen Hughes [00:57:21]:
You know, let’s go big, let’s. Let’s do it, but let’s. You got to be authentic. The second thing was, is the horrible hard stuff. There’s no point doing all of that if you don’t make the changes to policy and process. So you’ve got to go to the heart and do all the hard stuff. So an example of that would be, you Know, we were going to go out because of COVID and all of that and it was a return to the office and this kind of thing, old National Grid would have put out like a three page. You know, this is what you must do, mustn’t do.

Karen Hughes [00:57:54]:
It would have been a tick box. You’ve got to be in an office on a Wednesday afternoon at 3:00 clock or what, whatever. Yeah. Instead we went out with a one page and said, line managers taught you people work out what’s right for you in your bit of the world and what’s right for your people. However, don’t forget the values. We do want people to collaborate, we need people to come together and what have you, but only you know what’s right for you. And so that. And that was massive.

Karen Hughes [00:58:24]:
Things like that were massive because it was. It was just a massive change to approach of doing policy and process. And then the third bit, though, so I used to think the middle box was the hardest, but I’ve come to realise the third bit is the hardest and that’s then backing it up every day. So what you need is like sort of culture agents or change agents or whatever they are in the business and they can be. Be anybody, anywhere who’s going to do the stuff that I did back at M and S and go, Mel, when you just said that, that’s. That’s old way. Can we, can we, can we have another think about that? Can we do it this way? Or, oh, I found another policy that needs changing or it’s all the little everyday things. It’s how somebody talks to somebody, it’s what they choose to spend their time exploring or not.

Karen Hughes [00:59:19]:
And you need brave people. So what to help with that? We rolled out. And this comes. I know you’re going to have to me about a book, but we rolled out the five dysfunctions of a team. The. Pat, thanks. The only work.

Melody Moore [00:59:31]:
Love it. Yeah.

Karen Hughes [00:59:32]:
And I think the work that we did there around trust and being able to have good conflict, so have being able to say, I know we’ve always done it like this, but can we, can we look at that really help that daily stuff now, every business is different. I will certainly wouldn’t say every business should do that, but finding a way to make it tangible every day makes a difference.

Melody Moore [01:00:00]:
I had this exact conversation with a group in the NHS just the other day about that. Calling people out. So they talk a lot in the NHS about incivility, but then that’s between employees. And yeah, we were talking about how do you get People to call it out in the moment when you’ve got very hierarchical organisation. So really interesting. Yeah, Karen, I love all of that. Let me ask you some of my standard questions I ask people. So my first one is actually, well, what’s next? What’s next for you? You’re at genuine now.

Melody Moore [01:00:37]:
Yeah.

Karen Hughes [01:00:37]:
What’s.

Melody Moore [01:00:38]:
What do you think is even next in hr? It’s a big sort of what next question.

Karen Hughes [01:00:43]:
Yeah, no, no, good. So I think what next generally for me is, Is to keep. Keep doing what I’m doing, really. So I think I’ve realised that quite like it now. I definitely like being in a business. I like being close to the commercial element of a business and sort of contrary to how I felt that first week in United Utilities. I feel that I do, you know, I can see how I add the value and the commercial value. But yeah, keep, keep, keep being in those sort of leadership roles with, with the seat at the table.

Karen Hughes [01:01:19]:
I think what next for hr, I think needs to. That. It’s the continual evolution away from the sort of resources, policies, compliance piece, I think, as our computer systems. You know, we’ve talked before, you and I, about AI and that kind of thing. As that digital environment grows, then actually we should be freeing ourselves up because AI could give you the answer, right, about what’s the employment law in Italy and how do you answer this question? We should be freeing ourselves up to be helping the human in the business, because that doesn’t go away and in fact it just keeps getting more complex. So, yeah, for me it’s that got to keep doing the employment law and the compliance and all the rest of it. But how do we hive that off effectively to the digital world so that it frees us up to be. Have more conversations with humans?

Melody Moore [01:02:21]:
And that strikes me that the skills you talked about, about asking the questions and understanding the context and all of those consulting skills become even more important than. Because you’re taking away the sort of some of the subject, tactical, transactional knowledge aspect of IT and your HR people becoming then perhaps even more consultants.

Karen Hughes [01:02:44]:
Yeah, yeah, but. And that’s. That comes back to that, the terminology, isn’t it, of business partnering, you know, and I think you and I have probably worked with clients before and consultants, there’s often that. What is business partnering? How do you describe it? You know, what does good look like? And I still think it’s quite difficult to describe, by the way, except for when you see it happening really well, then you go, that’s it. Yeah, more, more of that. More of Working with each other on problems and. Yeah, and let the, the bots sort out the, the nuts and bolts and tangible stuff.

Melody Moore [01:03:23]:
Yeah. And what advice would you give to your younger self?

Karen Hughes [01:03:30]:
So I’m glad you told me you were going to ask me this question because I think it’s one of them, isn’t it? I think without a doubt. Which I’m still not good at. But worry less. Most of it never, ever happens. Whatever you’re worrying about just really doesn’t get the sleep. Instead. You know, I think the second thing is it’s okay to be yourself. You know, many people in life, friends, family and obviously work colleagues will give you feedback.

Karen Hughes [01:04:05]:
Will in all different shapes and forms, but actually most of the time, most people, 99.9% of the time, just be yourself. And that’s more than okay. And then the third thing is, which is a bit of a mum thing to say really, but you know, prioritise yourself. It’s okay when you say no, you know what, it’s five o’ clock and I am stopping because I want to do this, I want to do that. You know, I’ve worked for a number of different businesses now. No one ever is going to remember that I didn’t turn up to that meeting because I went to sports day. But boy, am I glad I went to the sports day.

Melody Moore [01:04:50]:
Yeah.

Karen Hughes [01:04:51]:
And I do hear sometimes people still saying, oh, I can’t, I can’t because. And I think, no, you know what’s really important, really. And yeah, just, just prioritise it.

Melody Moore [01:05:04]:
Be a bit selfish because your kids will remember that you didn’t go to sports day.

Karen Hughes [01:05:10]:
Yeah, but, but also. So I know there is one I didn’t go to and I know it’s probably more about me than anything else, but I, I do, I, I’m not, I mean, it’s fine. They all actually do merge a bit in the brain. So I could probably kid myself that I went, but I do know that I didn’t. And I remember the meeting and all that kind of thing. Was it worth it? No.

Melody Moore [01:05:32]:
You know, yeah. Yeah. And what about book recommendations? You just mentioned the five distinctions of a team.

Karen Hughes [01:05:40]:
Oh, that’s the one that I would recommend. And there’s a couple of reasons for it. One is that you can. It’s pretty easy to read. It’s like a story. The second thing is if people don’t like reading books, and I know it’s not for everyone, there’s a podcast type series and I think that’s very easy to accessible and YouTube and all that kind of thing. And since I was sort of exposed, if you like, to it, there probably isn’t anything in the business that I’ve come up against where I haven’t gone back to that a little bit because it’s so practical. And the bit around trust, I think, is just fascinating, you know, and when you’re working with leaders and their people and you kind of work out, why don’t they.

Karen Hughes [01:06:29]:
Why can’t they resolve this? It’s not that disco. And he goes, because actually, they don’t trust each other. And the whole thing about politics as well in business getting in the way and all that good stuff. So, yeah, I definitely think it’s one that is. Is a good recommendation.

Melody Moore [01:06:46]:
Funnily enough, you’re the second person to recommend one of his books to me in the last couple of weeks and I haven’t heard his name mentioned for years, and. And yet someone recommended one of his more recent books to me the other day. So it’s funny that he’s come up twice. I also don’t know. I call him Lencioni and always have done. I think it’s Lenchioni or something. I think I’m pronouncing it wrong.

Karen Hughes [01:07:13]:
Patrick Lencioni.

Melody Moore [01:07:14]:
Yeah, I’ve heard it pronounced differently. And, you know, when you’re hearing. You think, oh, have I been saying it wrong all this time? I probably realised as well, listen, I was thinking, oh, gosh, I think I’m getting more northern talking to Karen. People probably noticing my. My voice changing over the course of this. As a northerner who lives in the South, I’ve lost my accent. But then I talk to other northerners, it comes back.

Karen Hughes [01:07:43]:
Comes back, yeah.

Melody Moore [01:07:44]:
Final question is, what title would you give to your story?

Karen Hughes [01:07:51]:
This is really hard, isn’t it? So I think, you know, so I thought about this. I actually thought about when we talked about this before, and I don’t know if it’s right, but I’ve just said, you know, being more human and less resource.

Melody Moore [01:08:10]:
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Because we’ve talked before, haven’t we, about the title, Human Resources or Human Capital and how I’m not a fan.

Karen Hughes [01:08:26]:
No. And yes. And in preparing and thinking about our story, I was thinking that’s. Yeah, it’s definitely a theme for me and, you know, I guess relatively successful in a career and why. And I think it is. It’s the human.

Melody Moore [01:08:41]:
The human touch, the human aspect. Brilliant. Well, thank you, Karen. I’ve loved our conversation. It’s been fascinating both to get to know you better, but also to hear your views. I think there’s just some absolute gold in there in terms of advice for people. So really appreciate you coming on the podcast.

Karen Hughes [01:09:01]:
No problem. Thank you for asking me.

Melody Moore [01:09:05]:
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