Laurence Barrettt Podcast Transcript

Lawrence Barrett [00:00:00]:

My father was a policeman and he came from quite a tough background. He always used to say, actually the only way out of the place he’d come from was through crime and you had to pick one side or the other and he simply chose the police. And I remember when I was a kid going into bank with him and him explaining to me how you would rob the bank. I think psychology has got in the way of the relationship between us and, and ourselves. It’s taken increasingly kind of small and granular perspectives on the human condition. My family have, they have quite an interesting background. I mean, a lot of the family routes are with travellers. There’s a degree of outsiderness, if that is a word, in my family, I think, I suspect it’s intergenerational, transgenerational.

Melody Moore [00:00:51]:

Welcome to the Secret Resume. Hi, I’m Melody Moore, leadership consultant, coach and endlessly curious human. For over 20 years I’ve been helping leaders unlock potential in themselves, their teams and their organisations. Before we dive in, do you want to know how entrepreneurial your leadership really is? Why not try my Entrepreneurial Leadership Diagnostic? It takes just 10 minutes and gives you instant insights to grow your impact. You’ll find the link in the show notes. My guest today is Lawrence Barrett. Lawrence, I’m absolutely thrilled to have you here. I’ve been stalking you on LinkedIn for quite some time, so I’m really excited about the conversation we’re going to have.

Melody Moore [00:01:37]:

So let’s start off and get you to introduce yourself. Anyone who doesn’t know you well, thanks.

Lawrence Barrett [00:01:43]:

It’s a real, real pleasure to be here actually. And we’ve just had a great conversation which I wish we’d recorded, so. But anyway, I’m Lawrence Barrett, obviously I. I work as a coach, I work as a supervisor. I am very, I guess, oriented around applying Jungian psychology to my work and lecture on that at a few places, notably insead, Henley and, and Cambridge and also Mumbai, Tata Institute of Social Sciences. So that’s broadly what what I do. My background is I’m from the corporate world, hr, tech, talent management and before that I worked a lot in process development and operational research at the airports at Heathrow, notably.

Melody Moore [00:02:32]:

And your company name is?

Lawrence Barrett [00:02:34]:

Heresy Consulting, which has been running now for about 14 years since I left corporate life. 14 years, yeah.

Melody Moore [00:02:42]:

So before we dive in, I’m going to ask you two questions. So why Heresy Consulting?

Lawrence Barrett [00:02:52]:

Well, okay, here’s the thing. When Martin Luther nailed his thesis to the doors of Worms Cathedral, his complaint wasn’t that that there was a new way to look at, at God, his, his kind of religious perspective. It’s. His complaint was that the, the Catholic Church had got in the way of the relationship between man and God and he was called a heretic. And I kind of feel the same about psychology. I think psychology has got in the way of the relationship between us and ourselves. It’s taken increasingly kind of small and granular perspectives on the human condition and what we wanted to do with Heresy, Myself and Fiona Hanlon, who I set the business up with, she’s now retired but she still works with us. What I wanted to do with Heresy was to return, if you like, to sort of root psychology, clinical psychology, human psychology and reimagine what coaching, what development work, what consultancy could be like.

Lawrence Barrett [00:03:59]:

So, yeah, we’re called Heresy not because we wanted to do something different, but because we want to do something kind of fundamental and old in a way.

Melody Moore [00:04:07]:

I love it. And do you, like me, regret calling your company a long name? Because now you’ve got to spell things out and type a really long email address because that’s my one regret about calling my company also Liberare, which no one can. Yeah, I said that to someone recently. I was like, well, my one piece of advice would be don’t give your company name a long name.

Lawrence Barrett [00:04:32]:

A long night. No, I get that a bit. But everybody causes heresy, really. So although the typing is a pain, we’re heresy at the end of the day. Yeah, that’s what we tend to be.

Melody Moore [00:04:41]:

Referred to as perfect and Jungian psychology for those that don’t know what that is.

Lawrence Barrett [00:04:48]:

It’s really the psychology of Carl Jung, who was a, A Swiss psychologist, psychotherapist, psychiatrist, um, from really. He started working, I guess probably about 150 years ago, something like that. My dates aren’t great. Um, and it’s been one of the. The sort of key traditions of depth psychology has some. Particularly what I think of as, as a systemic aspect to it, which different. Differentiates it from. From something more Freudian, which is a bit more individually focused and yeah, young psychology, what I, I discovered young quite early on in, in life, probably about, I don’t know, 1920.

Lawrence Barrett [00:05:38]:

And since then I’ve really been trying to find ways to introduce and to test in psychology into first the commercial world and secondly into into coaching and consulting. And yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s an interesting psychology. It’s a frame all in and of itself. Could talk about it for hours.

Melody Moore [00:05:58]:

Well, I could talk about it for hours with you too, but maybe we’ll talk about it again later because you’re right, we could, we could talk about that for the whole recording. But let’s follow our. My usual process and go right back to the beginning and talk about some of the key people, places and experiences that have influenced you. And let’s start with your father.

Lawrence Barrett [00:06:23]:

Yeah, my f. My father was a policeman and he came from quite a tough background. He always used to say, actually the only way out of the place he’d come from was, was through crime. And you had, you had to pick one side or the other and he simply chose the police. And I remember when I was a kid going into a bank with him and him explaining to me how you would rob the bank, which I thought was fascinating. It’s the coolest thing ever. At sort of ages six, seven, you know, thinking, here’s my dad explaining to me how to rob a bank. And he used to.

Lawrence Barrett [00:06:59]:

I remember as a kid he had all these true crime magazines under, under his bed. And I remember when my parents were out, I’d sort of creep in and read these quite horrific sort of murder things. And they really, I think, gave me this sense of being an investigator. I was very in awe of my father on that. Solving things, particularly human things which, which kind of made no sense. And, and he taught me really that if I watch closely, every, every system has, has kind of gaps and flaws and it’s simply about observing why people do what they do. And you know, I discovered that at the age of six and seven. But it’s, it’s something, I think, that stayed with me and as I moved through life.

Lawrence Barrett [00:07:45]:

I’ve spent most of my life, and certainly I’ve made a living out of it, looking for gaps in the system. I guess it was quite a profound influence on me at the time.

Melody Moore [00:07:54]:

And how does that manifest now then, in what you do in your business?

Lawrence Barrett [00:08:01]:

Well, I think I started my career, I guess, in, in, in operational risk, among other things, looking for gaps in process flows for, like how people move through terminals, for example, at airports. And that risk mindset never leaves you because you are looking in a way for, for the gaps, the, the things which will go wrong. And when I started working in talent management, there was a developmental side to it, obviously, but there’s also heavy risk side to it. So if you’re going to promote a leader, for example, one of the questions that you’re going to be thinking about is not just what a great person they are, but also where’s it going to go wrong? How will I know? And what are the Risks I’m taking in that appointment. So a lot of my early work was very assessment heavy, looking at the overall profiling of an individual and. And there’s lots of kind, I think, quite inconvenient things about this. I mean, I was chatting someone this morning about this particular challenge. I would say that the biggest risks that face leaders, for example, are not weaknesses, they’re their strengths.

Lawrence Barrett [00:09:11]:

It’s overdone. Strengths are one of the single biggest problems facing organisations. And so if you’re kind of clear about what are the spikes a leader has, if you’re able to understand that, you can start to imagine on what that’s going to look like in terms of an impact on the system and impact on the leader’s behaviour, what are the causes for that? And so now, as I’m doing coaching work, a lot of my coaching practise is based on helping people understand themselves almost as a bundle of opportunities and risks. You know, where’s it going to go well and where’s it going to go badly? And what makes the difference between the two, which I think is particularly important for senior leaders and particularly important for senior leaders as they transition between roles, because the big danger they face, obviously, is that they keep doing stuff in the way that they’ve always done it and they double down. In other words, their strengths get bigger. And as the strengths get bigger, so too do the risks.

Melody Moore [00:10:06]:

Yes. Also, I think what got them there isn’t necessarily what’s going to get them. So if they’re overly reliant on that, then it’s the wrong things to be reliant on.

Lawrence Barrett [00:10:16]:

Yeah, absolutely. And so, in a way, the centre of a lot of my development practise is on the idea of noticing, because I. I believe that most people want to be good. You know, they want. They want good lives, they want easy lives. Generally speaking, people don’t seek to be failures, seek out problems. There are obviously personality types that do that, but most people don’t. And I think if people are able to better notice themselves and better notice the systems within which they operate, they are better placed to make better choices.

Lawrence Barrett [00:10:49]:

And that’s in a way that, you know, when I think back to the things I learned when I was a kid with my father, that’s very much, very much played out in my current practise.

Melody Moore [00:11:00]:

I love that I could talk about this particular thing for hours, but I’m gonna keep us moving on. I think this is going to be a running theme that maybe we’ll need to record for a five hour Episode let’s talk about Hong Kong so you were nine when you went to Hong Kong, is that right?

Lawrence Barrett [00:11:17]:

Yeah, my father was, got a placement out in Hong Kong in thing called the icac which was the, the, the effectively a group set up to deal with corruption, particularly linked to government police corruption, internal investigations, that sort of thing. And yeah, we went out to Hong Kong as a family. I didn’t stay there that long. My parents got divorced while I was, while we were out there. But it was, it was quite a tough challenge because it’s difficult to move at that time of life. I mean you’re kind of moving from the sort of babyish education in other words sort of basic reading and writing and maths and picture books to becoming, you know, more the foundations of proper schooling. And of course that was all profoundly interrupted. As for all my friendships and I got sent to, you know, it’s perfectly nice school but I didn’t really have many friends because the friendships were all quite well established.

Lawrence Barrett [00:12:14]:

Most of the kids there had been together since they were about 6 or 7 and it taught me in a way to be very reliant, self reliant and independent. And I guess I, you know, I came from a background which had been very cosy. You know, we grew up in a little village in Leicestershire and it was, it was quite nice and I knew everyone around me and I’d known them since, you know, we moved at the age of four and suddenly you’re in this sort of big city and you don’t know anyone and you’re very much alone. And what I learned was that I could tough it out but I was very self reliant and very independent and very resilient. Yeah. And it also taught me crucially that there was a much bigger world out there than my, my little village.

Melody Moore [00:13:02]:

And does that self reliance and independence, it’s still there?

Lawrence Barrett [00:13:09]:

Oh yeah, very, very much so. I mean I think it’s, it’s interesting even with my, my practising. What I think it probably taught me was that I, to, to sort of distrust authority and to distrust systems. I mean the two things together and it may be, I think slightly problematic at school in the sense that I, I didn’t rebel against school, I just wasn’t very interested and I kind of realised moderately early on that they actually had a relatively small amount of power over you in schools. I, I always remember getting stuffed in some detention for behaviour and you know, the teacher saying to me, you’re here in detention again, Barrett. And I remember saying to him you know, yeah, but I have nothing better to do, sir. And, and you’ve got a home to go to, which kind of annoyed him a great deal. But it created this sort of attitude within me which was, you know, I’ll just do what I need to do.

Lawrence Barrett [00:14:03]:

And there is a dark side to that. You know, one of my bosses once I call Peter Klepper, who’s still around, he was PwC, he’s one of the partners of PwC. He said to me, not everything is a fight, Lawrence. And I remember him at the time, I remember at the time thinking, I have no idea what you’ve just said to me. Everything is a fight, Peter. But you know, it stuck with me years later and, and I think I moderated my behaviour and I became less inappropriately resistant to authority and more appropriately resistant to authority and I, I think that level of resistance has also helped me in making my own path. And if you imagine in coaching, it’s been one of the factors, I think that’s helped me define, well, what my practise is as my practise rather than as a practise that I should copy or emulate.

Melody Moore [00:14:58]:

What were you fighting against?

Lawrence Barrett [00:15:01]:

Oh well, that’s a complex one. I mean, in part I think it was activated because, yeah, you know, I was, I was kind of out there on my own and through no choice of my own I think as well. I mean my family have always had a non conformist stance, I think is the best way of putting it to pretty much everything. So some of it is probably, you know, intergenerational. I think a lot of my resistance to authority goes, goes right the way back. Yeah, but I think it was simply a, a defence for me as an individual to sort of look after myself in the face of, you know, large amounts of confusion, complexity, change, loneliness, which as I said at the time was, was relatively tough. I mean, I’d look back on it and it wasn’t that bad, but it probably was. Right now I think it’s really helped me become much more interested in, in what I want to do, what I feel I need to do, rather than what I feel I ought to do.

Melody Moore [00:16:13]:

And do you think it was that? I guess I’m curious as if that change in environment brought that out in you or was it always there and maybe you just didn’t know it because it wasn’t tested well, there’s a chicken.

Lawrence Barrett [00:16:32]:

And egg but I think it actually brought it out in me because I think it was already there. My family have. So they have quite interesting Background, I mean a lot of the family routes are with travellers settled, you know, way back in the 20s. But there’s a degree of outsiderness, if that is a word, in, in my family I think, which has been sort of there with all of my, my brothers and my cousin and we all play a very kind of similar role within our systems. So I suspect it’s always been there, I suspect it’s intergenerational, transgenerational. And then Hong Kong was simply my trigger, if that makes sense. It was quite funny actually because when I, when my book was, I got a nice award for my book which was terribly exciting and I rang my brother up who’s a gp, a doctor, an academic at a well known medical school and his first comment to me was people like us don’t get things like that, which sort of says it all. You look at it and think, dude, you know, you’re, you’re a, you’re a well known voice in your field and you still have the chip.

Lawrence Barrett [00:17:51]:

And I, I think it is, I think there’s, there’s a chip on the shoulder for all of us. I think this was mine and that was the way played out, that was Hong Kong activated that within me, which had a, an up and a downside I would say.

Melody Moore [00:18:06]:

And do you think that’s partly why you’ve ended up working for yourself rather than, I mean you worked in corporate for a long time, you said.

Lawrence Barrett [00:18:16]:

Yeah, probably not actually because I, I’m not, I’m not in, in a sense very, I mean I talked about independent but I’m not independent. I think I’m, I’m, I like to be free within relationship, if that makes sense. So I fitted really well into corporate life in that sense provided I was given the authority and ability to do what I wanted to do. So when I first started moving into specialist role, a great place and I had a fantastic boss actually lady called Priscilla Vacin who was HR director at, well, three companies that I was at. And Priscilla was wonderful to work with because she kind of gave me a, a playpen and a set of things that she needed and then just left me to do them. And that was a perfect thing for me because it allowed me to be an outsider on the inside, if that makes sense. Yes, I was able to deploy my kind of expertise and my specialism in the way that I felt was right and yet still be part of something. So I do like being part of something and even now, you know, I tend to form client relationships which last a long while and I enjoy working with my clients, I enjoy being part of their world even though I’m an outsider.

Melody Moore [00:19:25]:

And do you feel like I’m really curious about this idea of being an outsider? Do you feel like an outsider or did you when you’re in corporate world, let’s put it like that.

Lawrence Barrett [00:19:36]:

No, not, not really. But I do feel very marginal and I think that’s an interesting one for me. Intergenerationally it’s my, my people. I think it’s also my own experience of life with moving to Hong Kong, being slightly on the outside and I think it’s also the role in a way of a coach and a consultant. Because our job is we do need to be outsiders on the inside, insiders on the outside have to have an independent perspective and yet at the same time we need to be in our clients minds and in our clients worlds if we’re going to understand them. We, we are by our very nature moving between worlds in liminal spaces, helping our clients move from A to B. And in that space between the two is where the coaching consultant adds real value because we help people through the uncertainty, complexity, alienation, isolation that goes with those transitional states. I think if we understand it, because that’s kind of A, we’ve experienced it, but B, it’s also quite possibly our, our nature, our, our character, then I think we’re well placed to do it.

Lawrence Barrett [00:20:50]:

I mean, you know, if you want someone to take you through the valley of death, you need someone who’s been there before you, so to speak.

Melody Moore [00:20:55]:

I often say that you need to be similar enough that they’ll let you in the door, but different enough that you can actually be a catalyst for change. And I think that even comes down to what you look like and how you dress like. I’ve always felt really strongly that otherwise you’re in danger of just assimilating and you can’t be that catalyst.

Lawrence Barrett [00:21:16]:

Yeah, I think, I think that’s very true and it’s interesting for heresy actually because I would say our clients are typically highly conventional businesses with a great deal of confidence in their skill set. We don’t work for creative industries for example, so we’re working with people who are very comfortable in their own skin and yet at the same time need something else. So yeah, we, we fit and yet at the same time we don’t.

Melody Moore [00:21:44]:

Yes, you fit enough. And I’ve seen both people and organisations be really tissue rejected because they were too different.

Lawrence Barrett [00:21:54]:

Yeah, exactly. Or, or if they’re too similar then what’s the point of them?

Melody Moore [00:21:57]:

Right, yes, exactly, exactly. Interesting. Right, let’s talk about. I love this one. This is when you became a Marxist. Angela Davis. Let’s talk about her.

Lawrence Barrett [00:22:11]:

Yeah, Angela Davis is an incredible woman. She’s still alive. She’s one of the people I would very much like to meet. If one day I ever get to meet one of my heroes, then she would be the one I want to meet. She was a Black Panther back in the 60s. She was actually on America’s most wanted list for a little while. And I saw an interview with her when I was a kid. I mean, I was 13, 14 or something like that.

Lawrence Barrett [00:22:37]:

And what interested me was she had this very definite perspective that the inequality that was. She was facing as a black woman in the States wasn’t necessarily just due to colour. Her view was that it was about class. And the class battle was. Was an issue that affected most people because we were trapped into a system which effectively syphoned money upwards for the benefit of a few off the backs of the majority. And it was a very clear view. She’s very articulate woman, actually. She now works in.

Lawrence Barrett [00:23:14]:

In the US prison system. And there’s. This is really, really impressive. And that kind of idea about universal class struggle as a thing that united people for me was really inspiring. It made me. I mean, it didn’t make me aware of injustice because I think I was aware of injustice beforehand, but it made. It gave me a frame. And I got very interested in.

Lawrence Barrett [00:23:36]:

In Marx and. And Marx’s thoughters as a result, and the way in which, if you like, the ruling class sort of maintain their position. And it made me very interested, I think, in the value of education because I think probably before that, before that age, I wasn’t that interested in education. For all the kind of lack of, you know, the. The disrespectful authority that I mentioned. I didn’t really engage very much with the educational system. But I think when I kind of found her and I spent, you know, literally weeks and months sitting in the library. I’d read Des Kabatar when I was about 13, not in German.

Melody Moore [00:24:14]:

Disappointed in you.

Lawrence Barrett [00:24:15]:

Yeah, I know. Sorry about that. But. But, you know, I was. I spent a lot of time in the library in Wellingborough, which is where we lived, reading political literature in, you know, in the broadest sense, actually inspired really by her. And that prompted me to really start to take education seriously. Obviously I still didn’t take schooling seriously, which created all sorts of problems for me, but. But education became really important for me.

Lawrence Barrett [00:24:42]:

How I educated Myself. And I think the other thing she. She said, which I really stayed with me. She described herself as a reluctant warrior. And that sort of really resonated with me because it gave you the. Gave me the sense that, you know, there was a struggle to be had, but the struggle had to have purpose and had to have a point. And I think it set me off on. On a lifelong journey of wondering about.

Lawrence Barrett [00:25:09]:

About what I was there to do. You know, it. What was. What was my opinion, what was my voice, what did I need? What difference did I need to make? And I don’t know, it’s taken me a long while to really come to terms with that. But, yeah, I think she set me off on a path. One day I would like to meet her. I hope I do one day.

Melody Moore [00:25:31]:

And so that reluctant warrior, then, is that. I mean that immediately, to my mind, gives a sense of. Is that your purpose? Do you have a sense of purpose of what you’re trying to achieve?

Lawrence Barrett [00:25:46]:

Yeah, I think I have a sense of purpose. I don’t think I have a purpose purpose. I think it comes back a little bit to this sense of voice, being able to notice things and being able to talk about them. I think that’s sort of how I try to work as a coach, it’s how I work as a consultant. You know, notice the organisations, notice the individuals you work with and talk honestly and openly about what is going on. And I think that is in itself a struggle. But I think there’s a lot that’s redemptive in there. It’s redemptive for individuals, it’s redemptive for organisations.

Lawrence Barrett [00:26:24]:

And in. Crucially, it’s redemptive for me because it allows me the sense that I’m, you know, my younger self, so to speak, is able to talk about the things that I probably wasn’t able to talk about or didn’t have the voice or didn’t have the ability to articulate some of the things that sort of bothered me. And the reason the warrior piece is important there is. I think it’s difficult. No, because if you. If you speak out about particular problems, it creates difficulties. You know, you. You’re going to upset people.

Lawrence Barrett [00:26:56]:

If you talk in an organisation about organisational risk and you’re really touching the real issues. Yeah, you’re going to be unpopular. If you talk to an individual about how their method of working, their. Their tried and tested methods are just not going to work for them going forwards and what do they want to do about that? You’re not going to be popular because it’s profoundly inconvenient. So it requires a degree of courage, if you like, to have that.

Melody Moore [00:27:20]:

Yeah. There’s a book called Coaching With Backbone and Heart and I just really like the title.

Lawrence Barrett [00:27:26]:

It’s a great title. I’ve never read it, but it’s a great title.

Melody Moore [00:27:29]:

I just. I think that was probably when I realised how brave you have to be being a coach. And particularly if you’re someone who wants people to like you or, you know, there’s always that complex relationship that you’re always trying to navigate between, well, support and challenge. For one of. A better way of describing it, isn’t it? Because you want. You don’t want to turn off the person you’re working with by being too scary for them.

Lawrence Barrett [00:28:02]:

Yeah. And this is. It comes back to that line again, because you are. You are working with someone who needs to move forward, who’s probably aware of why they need to develop, but the. They need you to help them through that, because if they knew what they wanted to do, they’d do it. Right. You know, it’s. It’s not rocket science, what we do.

Lawrence Barrett [00:28:24]:

So at one level they do know, but at another level, that’s a big jump.

Melody Moore [00:28:28]:

Yes.

Lawrence Barrett [00:28:29]:

And it’s. It’s frightening for them. And the fear and our ability, in a way, to carry that, to face that fear, to face the. The discomfort that comes with that and to not be afraid of it, in a way allows them to detoxify their own emotional state and allows them to think, well, if. If you’re not afraid of it, then I probably. I’m not afraid of it. So let’s work.

Melody Moore [00:28:53]:

Yes. I find a lot of people come to me because they intellectually understand.

Lawrence Barrett [00:28:59]:

Yeah.

Melody Moore [00:28:59]:

That they have a challenge with something. And for me, a lot of people. People come to me because they intellectually know that there’s something in their past that they’re still carrying with them. Intellectually, knowing it doesn’t mean they know what to do with it or how to deal with it or how to be different. They just, you know, and that, for me, that’s. That’s been really interesting in how my practise has evolved, is I’m much more interested in what their body’s telling them now than what their head is telling them, because the head will only get you so far.

Lawrence Barrett [00:29:31]:

Yeah, I think you’re right with that. And I’m very interested. I mean, I’m increasingly interested in the somatic stuff, but I think, crucially, the attitude of the coach is the defining factor here, because if you have a coach who is able, who is not afraid of fear, so to speak, then there’s a huge bonus in that. Because you think, well, if my coach isn’t being overwhelmed by my concerns and my issues, then I. I can face it. Whereas if you have a coach who rigidly sticks to a process or is afraid of the unconscious or who’s afraid of difficult emotions, then what effectively you’re receiving as a client is, well, my coach is scared of that, so I should be scared of that as well.

Melody Moore [00:30:14]:

Yes.

Lawrence Barrett [00:30:16]:

And I. I think that’s kind of problematic. And so for me, the. The reluctant warrior idea was kind of summed it up beautifully, you know, because coaching is. It’s a difficult profession. I mean, a lot of the times it’s a pain in the neck, you know, it’s. Sometimes it’s. It’s not fun at all.

Lawrence Barrett [00:30:34]:

But it’s worth doing.

Melody Moore [00:30:36]:

Yes.

Lawrence Barrett [00:30:38]:

And it’s worth doing for me and it’s worth doing for my clients. And, you know, there are discussions that need to be had and, you know, kind of, I’m here, so I think.

Melody Moore [00:30:48]:

I get as much out of it as my clients do, if I’m honest. There’s just something for me about the connection and that sense of. Really, when you walk out of a session, you think, I actually really, genuinely helped that person. There’s nothing like it to me. I think it’s. It’s the luckiest job in the world.

Lawrence Barrett [00:31:05]:

Well, when it works, it is, yeah.

Melody Moore [00:31:08]:

It’s not when they’re like this.

Lawrence Barrett [00:31:10]:

We all like talking about our success stories, but we’re just about to kick off a piece of research actually, at Heresy, where we’re looking at the coaches motivation, why they coach and the extent to which that shapes their practise. Because what I notice a lot in supervision is that many of my clients, their kind of primal motivations from early life or intergenerational, define quite literally how they practise, who they work with. And bringing that to consciousness really enriches the practise, actually. It allows them to use themselves much more effectively as a person.

Melody Moore [00:31:48]:

Well, we clearly completely aligned in the way that we’re thinking, because that’s on my list of things to write about, is to think about developmental trauma and how as coaches, it shows up in our coaching. So we’re completely aligned with what we find interesting. Because I think it’s interesting from both perspectives, isn’t it? It’s interesting to understand as a. As a client, how you show up as a client because of your developmental trauma. Is my particular interest because I see the way that different clients behave towards me because of their, you know, the different things that they are challenged with and how they behave towards coaching. But then on the other side, you know, how do I, as a coach, show up to my clients based on my developmental trauma? So, yeah, I find the whole thing deeply interesting.

Lawrence Barrett [00:32:52]:

There’s a kind of archetypal idea in Jungian psychology which I’m very drawn to, which is the wounded healer, which basically suggests that you are best placed to work with clients who share the wounds that you have.

Melody Moore [00:33:04]:

Yes.

Lawrence Barrett [00:33:05]:

And that’s for two reasons. One, you see them more clearly because you know where you’re coming from, and there’s a risk in that, which is you project yourself onto them and their problem becomes your problem, etc. But. But you do have an innate understanding of some of the issues. But the more important question with the wounded healer is the client is able to look at you and think, well, you’ve got the same problems I’ve got and you’re able to deal with them and you’re not that much better than me and therefore you can teach me something.

Melody Moore [00:33:35]:

Yes.

Lawrence Barrett [00:33:36]:

Whereas if you don’t have those wounds, you know, if you. If you’re working with a coach who is perfect on a particular topic that you’re very broad on, actually, it’s quite intimidating, I think. Yes, it’s much easier to work with someone who’s a. Is a bit like you and is, you know, sort of has the same problems you’ve got. So the wood dealer archetype is. Is a. Is a kind of powerful idea, to be honest.

Melody Moore [00:33:58]:

I have increasingly shared with people when I see something that they have. I’ve kind of moved away from this coach as a kind of blank slate to being much more human. And if someone. If I have experienced things that my clients have experienced, I will now tell them, whereas a few years ago I would never have done that. But I think you’re absolutely right. It makes them feel better because you’re not sat there being this perfect, you know, invulnerable person.

Lawrence Barrett [00:34:27]:

Yeah.

Melody Moore [00:34:28]:

You’re normal like them.

Lawrence Barrett [00:34:29]:

I mean, I. This will be a bit controversial because some people wouldn’t. Wouldn’t like this at all. But I think the idea of coaching and objectivity is a complete myth because we know we’re always in relationship when we’re in relationship. So if you look at something like neural entrainment, you know, the idea that thought may not be individual and we’re constantly exchanging what we would term projections but, you know, it becomes a physical factor in the brain, so we know we’re in relationship. And I would say that, you know, the idea of objectivity taught by many coaches is a defence actually against relationship, which has an impact on the client. And for some clients, that is simply a coach that is a bit objective and a bit distant. And for some clients is a repetition of perhaps early childhood trauma.

Melody Moore [00:35:20]:

Definitely, I, as I said, very interested in the somatic side of things and also the energy exchange between the coach and the client. And that sense that I can feel what they’re feeling in the moment, which is incredibly powerful. And sometimes I can feel things that they don’t know, that they are experts. It’s a weird thing, but when I say, oh, I felt X, they’re like, no, that is what I’m feeling. I just was trying not to, you know, it’s often sadness or anger or whatever.

Lawrence Barrett [00:35:56]:

This is. This is the nature of relationship, right?

Melody Moore [00:35:58]:

Totally, totally. Right, let’s talk about somewhere. I love the Dordogne cave paintings, and you are the first person to come on the podcast to talk about cave paintings in the Jordo. So tell me why you chose this.

Lawrence Barrett [00:36:15]:

Okay. Well, I mean, I was. It’s. It was an interesting one for me. I was at university. I was. I did a lot of rock climbing and me and a friend wanted to spend the summer rock climbing without having to do any work. And the Dordogne is warm and pleasant, and we were keen to go there.

Lawrence Barrett [00:36:34]:

And we discovered that the university gave grants for suitable academic studies in the. In the holidays. So we thought, well, there are cave paintings in the Dordog, and let’s go and study cave paintings. And the university gave us money and off we went, which was very nice of them. And what’s interesting about cave paintings was. And if you’ve seen them, you’ll know this. But for those who haven’t, you kind of imagine they’re just going to be kind of primitive pictures of bison on rocks. And that’s kind of it, but it isn’t that at all.

Lawrence Barrett [00:37:10]:

What you’re looking at are images that are painted kind of into the wall, so the wall becomes part of the painting and under sort of particular candlelight for conditions, for example, that they almost become alive. I mean, they’re extraordinary images, really quite advanced, really quite powerful to look at. And I was. I was kind of blown away by these things. And, yeah, we still did the rock climbing, all the usual stuff, but we spent a lot of time in the caves and I was lucky enough to meet a French authority on cave art who said to me, understanding cave paintings is like understanding the catechism of the Catholic Church based on a floor plan of the Vatican, which wasn’t kind of very helpful. And it sort of frustrated me in a way because I thought, there’s something I’m almost touching on here that. That I don’t understand, but I feel I. I do.

Lawrence Barrett [00:38:08]:

And it was very difficult, you know, very complicated experience. And a few months afterwards, my. My girlfriend at the time, that, now my wife, gave me a book called the Myth of the Goddess by two Jungians, Jill Cashford and Anne Baring, which is an excellent book. It’s a really, really good book. I’d recommend anyone reads it. And it’s a breakdown on. Of goddess imagery through the ages through a Jungian lens. And once I read this, I suddenly started to understand that the cave art could be seen in the same way that some of it could be seen as what, in Jungian terms, we would call archetypal, so touching on the raw, psychosomatic experience of human beings in their world.

Lawrence Barrett [00:38:50]:

And you don’t understand the cave art in the Jungian frame in a sort of purest, final way, but it allows you to move towards a framework through which you can start to imagine what the cave art might mean and what it might mean to you. So it sort of opened up the idea for me that the mysterious, the. The supernatural, which, by the way, was something profoundly deep in my. My family background, lots of fortune telling and other such things, it allowed me to sort of work with that in a way that felt more kind of scientific, if that makes sense, more conscious.

Melody Moore [00:39:29]:

What did you do? So you were, what, 20 at the time that you did this? What did you do with this emerging interest and experience?

Lawrence Barrett [00:39:41]:

Well, I sort of sat on it for a while. I didn’t really do anything with it, but it was always there. And once I started working in particularly culture change originally and then moving into leadership development, particularly culture change, it added to my. My sense of systems, this ability to. To notice that people did things for strange and mysterious reasons. And it allowed me to start wondering about archetypal ideas. So, you know, what is the role of the organisation as an archetypal father or mother? And it helped me get a kind of richer understanding, if you like, of the unspoken mystery of organisational life. And I think as I got more connected with talent management and leadership development, then I started to apply my thinking into, quite literally, leadership programmes, organisational change programmes, which led to kind of where heresy is today.

Lawrence Barrett [00:40:40]:

I Didn’t tell many people about that, by the way.

Melody Moore [00:40:43]:

I was just about to say that because, you know, we talked about that kind of being similar enough to be let in and not too different. So was it a sort of secret underpinning of your foundation of your thinking?

Lawrence Barrett [00:40:58]:

Yeah, very, very much so. I mean, my. My master’s thesis was on liminality, rites of passage. It was a critique of rites of passage from a Jungian point of view and an application of that into organisational leadership development programmes. So what I was kind of playing with was this idea of wouldn’t be interesting to develop a leadership development programme which was a rite of passage in kind of classical psychological anthropological terms. And so a lot of the work that I was doing towards the end of my corporate life was saying, taking some of these theory, this theory and these ideas and going, well, what would it look like if it was in a corporate development, a leadership development programme, without being too overt about it, in fact, being moderately secretive about it, you were able to. I was able to deploy certain principles and most of the work, Heresy now does, just takes that a little bit further and in a way quite literally applies Jungian theory into things like development programmes and consulting. Doesn’t always work, but.

Lawrence Barrett [00:42:01]:

But where it does, it’s very powerful.

Melody Moore [00:42:04]:

So are you more overt about it now?

Lawrence Barrett [00:42:06]:

Oh, yeah, I would say so. And. And I think people. People kind of buy that too, because there is a. There’s a depth to it and, and you do need to know what you’re doing, but combine that with the sort of reality of organisational life and, yeah, people buy that.

Melody Moore [00:42:29]:

And you said it sometimes works and sometimes doesn’t. What are your experiences where it really works? And what about the circumstances where it’s less successful?

Lawrence Barrett [00:42:40]:

Well, here’s a problem with psychology which is profoundly inconvenient for psychologists, which is the hard problem of consciousness. You know, we still don’t really know how the mind works. It’s. It’s all based on phenomenon and it’s all based on our understanding of those phenomenon, and part of the understanding of the phenomenon is based on ourselves. So, you know, we can’t in a way understand the human mind properly because we’re always seeing it through the perspective of our own mind, which brings all sorts of potential bias in there. So we have an imperfect understanding, if that makes sense. So when you look at something like Jungian theory, it’s pretty good, actually. I.

Lawrence Barrett [00:43:18]:

I mean, I like Jung’s work. I think it’s great. I think there bits that are Missing, I think there are things which are of the time and of his time and of him. The world moves. And as we look at, let’s say, neuroscience, some of it’s making very clear that his observations were solid and grounded and some things saying, well, possibly not. So if we look at leadership development programmes, for example, a lot of the commentary on liminality from depth psychology is based very much in the dyadic relationship that exists between coach and client. So liminality is something that can be experienced between two people, one of whom is a coach or a psychotherapist. Technically that’s not actually correct theoretically, because one of the things that liminality requires is the experience of relationship in group, what they call a communitas.

Lawrence Barrett [00:44:08]:

And Jungian theory doesn’t really reflect that. So I spent quite a lot of time looking at group analytic theory, so work of Fulks SH Fuchs, which does allow you to understand it in those terms. So I think for me, one of the important things in this journey was to be inspired by Jung to take a kind of Jungian approach to my work. But recognising as well that there’s a whole bunch of other stuff that needs to be. Be thought through, including more advanced, modern organisational life, advances in neuroscience, different perspectives on, you know, gender, all of those sorts of things all need to be constantly changed and recombined.

Melody Moore [00:44:45]:

Yeah, it’s interesting when you were just talking about, you know, that relationship between the coach and the coachee, client, whatever we call them. But of course there’s a bigger client there as well, isn’t there? There’s the organisation as the client and the complexity that that brings to the coaching relationship, sometimes subtly and sometimes heavily is. Makes for coaching even more interesting, I think.

Lawrence Barrett [00:45:10]:

Yeah, it does. And. And that’s, you know, again, it’s been very useful as I’ve developed my. My thinking mean, my masters was in child and adolescent psychotherapy and the being introduced to ideas like holding and the. The holding particularly of infants and the way developmental spaces are. Are created by parents has been incredibly useful in understanding not just holding of the client, but also creating a boundary which keeps the organisation out so that you’re able to allow for development to happen without this constant level of persecution that sort of exists from time to time. So, yeah, I think so. For me, working in depth psychology in that way is not a, you know, reading Jung doesn’t.

Lawrence Barrett [00:45:57]:

I don’t cut and paste the ideas because I think they have a use, but I think it’s for. I look at it as an inspiration and the more I’m able to draw on different forms of psychology and neurobiology and then myself take those and go, well, how does that apply into my world? I think that’s the essence of my practise now.

Melody Moore [00:46:19]:

Okay, so let’s build on this, I think, because your final thing you’re going to talk about is your checks, notes, Executive Masters in change at insead. Tell me about that, it sounds fascinating.

Lawrence Barrett [00:46:35]:

Well, it’s an amazing programme. I first came across this when I asked one of the professors there, Roger Lehman, to come and speak at an event I was running and, and corporate life. And he kind of participated a bit in the event and he said to me afterwards, you know, this is depth psychology that you’re doing here. And I’m like, yeah, you got me there, Roger. It actually is. And he asked me to come along and initially do some visiting lectures at INSEAD on the MC and then later become what they term a practicum supervisor, helping people work through kind of organisational ideas, applying psychosocial systems, depth psychology, basically in, into those, into their learning. And it was a really great experience for me because the faculty at EMC is a really good one. People like Roger, Eric van der Lu, Antono Paltzer, Gilles Amadou and others who I haven’t got time to name, but really impressive people, all of whom are profoundly, I mean, far more than me.

Lawrence Barrett [00:47:48]:

It was very challenging, actually. When I first started, I was 44 and, you know, some of the guys I was working with were well into their 60s, some into 70s and 80s, and they really knew things and I’d read their papers and their books and I really didn’t in comparison. So it was a hell of a. Hell of a challenge. One of them actually used to call me the boy, rather, which was, you know, it was really tough, actually. It was quite challenging because I was there among a group of people who, who in a way were role models for me in terms of their thinking and their capacity to, to take these, these kind of quite esoteric ideas and bring them into organisational life. And that was an inspiring time. I had been working in insead now for 14 years on this programme and I think what it’s done for me is to help me become much more confident in my own opinion, beyond the things I’d learned.

Lawrence Barrett [00:48:41]:

I have. I remember a particular conversation with Gill Amado, who’s a very gifted French psychotherapist and psychologist and, and now retired. But he actually asked me a serious question, you know, how do I compare and Contrast Jungian psychology with Marxist Leninist dialectics. And it was a. A very complicated question and really interesting for me at the time, because he actually wanted to know what I thought. Not what the theory said, but what I thought. Genuinely interested in what I thought. And it was a real moment for me of, wow, you know, I’ve got an opinion here that somebody might want to listen to.

Lawrence Barrett [00:49:23]:

And not only somebody, somebody actually who inspires me. And I. I think that really helped me get a. A sense of what I wanted to do next, which was not simply learn the theory and be good at it, but actually take it forwards in a way that people like, like Roger, particularly Roger Lehman and Eric Vandalou had done with the emc, take it forwards and start to think of new ways to apply Jungian theory, depth psychology as well, more broadly, into organisational life. It gave me the confidence, basically, I’m in debt to them.

Melody Moore [00:50:03]:

What I just heard you describe from Gilles. Was that his name? Did you say he. That’s real intellectual humility, isn’t it? He’s this guy who’s been there for a long time doing all these things, and he’s asking you, as the new guy about your perspective on something. And I love to hear that he wasn’t just telling you or asking you as a challenge. He was genuinely curious. It sounds like.

Lawrence Barrett [00:50:31]:

Yeah. And, well, I think this was a really interesting question because all of the faculty there, they really do know things and that has given them, I think, a degree of humility, because none of them have got anything to prove, certainly not to prove to me. And as a result, it helped me move my learning from simply trying to copy or impress, which is, I think, something we all get tied up in at a point in our career, to actually just having genuine, genuinely stretching conversations about what I did think and what I did believe and what I was prepared to support and endorse. And it really helped me move forward, actually, a journey which my current supervisor, Test Tess Castleman, has really helped me with as well. You know, that. That ability to think about things that you know that are concrete and you can support theory and then say to them, what would it look like in an organisation leadership development programme for a global organisation? What would that look like if it was applied there? And that does require a bit of bravery, to be honest. It exposes you. So that was.

Lawrence Barrett [00:51:37]:

It’s important and I have a bit of a debt to those guys for that reason.

Melody Moore [00:51:41]:

Well, it requires bravery from you, but it also requires bravery from an organisation that you’re working with because, you know, often I think some of the more exciting, radical ideas are, you know, the person who’s buying you and bringing you into the organisation also has to be brave.

Lawrence Barrett [00:52:02]:

Yeah, but it’s an interesting one that, because. And I do have that as. Encounter that as a view. Sometimes I don’t think anything I do is radical or even that exciting. To be absolutely honest. Many of the people who join heresy get profoundly disappointed. Disappointed quite quickly because, you know, we’re helping leaders build confidence to lead. That’s kind of it really.

Lawrence Barrett [00:52:23]:

You know, we help them figure out what sort of a leader they want to be. We work with insurance companies, we work with banks. I mean, this is not kind of exciting stuff on one level. It’s, it’s ordinary and, and I get very excited by the ordinariness of it. This is life. And I think for me, the exciting thing about Jungian work here is I’m not, you know, sitting in a, in a sweat lodge sort of imagining the goddess. I’m, I’m deploying some of these very kind of old, very well considered pieces of theory into the real world. So it’s quite ordinary in some ways.

Lawrence Barrett [00:52:57]:

What. One of. One of my clients, I used to work with her way back when I was in insurance and I, I used to run resourcing and organisational leadership development for, for a large insurance company. And I remember her turning around to me and she said, lawrence, just face it, you’re a training manager for an insurance company. And it sort of put me very definitely onto the ground. But one of my reflections on that is, yeah, that’s kind of all I am really. You know, we’re not doing anything magical in, in business, it’s just business. But there are really important things in it in terms of how people develop and the contribution they make.

Lawrence Barrett [00:53:36]:

We need to know the depths, but they don’t need to know the depth, they just need to know we know the depth, that’s all.

Melody Moore [00:53:44]:

Yes, I agree. And I think too often we think we have to show them the depth that we know and we don’t.

Lawrence Barrett [00:53:51]:

Exactly. And that’s what I learned, I think, from Anton and Jill, because, you know, and, and Roger and others there because they really did know what they were talking about. I know that because I’ve read their papers, but they talked in very ordinary terms and that was what the work we do.

Melody Moore [00:54:09]:

You know, I would also disagree with you and say it’s not magic, because I think it can be magic. And I think sometimes when you can be very effective as a Facilitator as a coach. It can feel like magic to the people that you’re working with because they almost like they don’t know the workings. I suppose that’s what magic is, isn’t it? It’s something happening, happens and you don’t know why or how.

Lawrence Barrett [00:54:32]:

Yeah, actually, I. I do agree with you. It’s weird because I had a. I. I had. I have a. I have a foot massage every month, which is very nice. And the woman who does it is.

Lawrence Barrett [00:54:41]:

She’s a reflexologist and, and very skilled at her work. And today she was like, ah, it’s interesting because you’ve got this. This tension in your foot here and so you’ve got a problem with your neck, haven’t you? And weirdly, yes, I’ve got a stiff neck from a workout I did and it’s been really painful two days. So in one way, you know, I listen to that and I’m like, that’s amazing. In another way, you think, well, she’s trying to do it. So if she hadn’t noticed it, probably she wouldn’t be very good, would she?

Melody Moore [00:55:07]:

But I think often people undervalue what it is that they do. I was talking with a client the other day and I was saying, you know, you’ve got this real strength in this particular area. And she’s like, yes, but that’s just normal. I’m like, it’s not not normal. Just because you find it easy doesn’t mean everybody else does. We’ve all got our magic. We just don’t always recognise that you’re right.

Lawrence Barrett [00:55:33]:

And we all need a reminder of that, actually, from time to time.

Melody Moore [00:55:36]:

Right, let’s talk. Look forward. Well, a little bit of forward and a little bit of back, but let’s look forward in terms of what’s next. What next for you? What’s next for Heresy?

Lawrence Barrett [00:55:49]:

I mean, what’s next for Heresy is. I mean, to continue to do what we do. I mean, I have a real feeling myself about developing the profession, about developing leaders. I think if we are able to work with clients to build more effective leaders, then that will benefit everybody. You know, it will benefit society, given some of the larger organisations that I work with. So heresy, really, it’s just to continue to contribute. And I think for me, I’m doing less coaching work now. A lot more of my practise is based on supervision and I think my.

Lawrence Barrett [00:56:27]:

My shift is much more now towards helping coaches develop their practise and helping leaders, to an extent, develop their practise, but particularly coaches and so I. I guess, you know, what I’ll do is I’ll do more developmental work. I’m enjoying the work I do with, with a few business schools. And I’ll probably write more.

Melody Moore [00:56:51]:

About what.

Lawrence Barrett [00:56:55]:

Terribly boring Jungian psychology and how it’s applied into organisation, leadership development. That’s sort of where I come from. That is my life’s work. It’s my passion, actually. I’m very. I’m very interested in that. So, yeah, that’s what I’ll probably focus on.

Melody Moore [00:57:08]:

And looking at things from your perspective of a supervisor, then I’m really interested in your view on, you know, what coaches struggle with.

Lawrence Barrett [00:57:26]:

I think there comes a point from many coaches and it’s certainly my clients tend to be people who are good coaches, so they know what they’re doing, they know how to coach and they come to a point where there is almost this question of, is this it? Am I just going to do this for the next 20 years? And there’s a sense that something’s missing. And I think that’s the, if you like, the second stage of coaching. I mean, the first stage of coaching is literally learn to coach. I mean, there’s some things that you. That you should not do because they are bad and there are some things that give you a good foundation, so learn that stuff. I think the second phase, though, is where people are more into how do I align my practise with my sense of self, with how I’m developing myself, with where my life is leading me. And I think that’s something that starts as a kind of doubt sort of itch that needs to be scratched, a sense that, you know, I’m. I’m bored.

Lawrence Barrett [00:58:24]:

One of my clients actually famously said, I love this quote, he just said, I’m boring myself now. And I remember thinking, you know, this is great because boredom is right, a lack of connection. That’s all boredom is. You know, I’m just disconnected from what I’m doing. And he’s very disconnected. So how do we reconnect? And the way we reconnect, I think back to this wounded healer idea, is we bring ourselves more into our practise and our practise becomes a reflection of us in the world in which we’re in. And the clients we then apply, appeal to will be the clients who need what we as people have to offer, rather than simply as a kind of generic cookie cutter type of coaching. And I think that’s important.

Lawrence Barrett [00:59:08]:

It’s how I’m developing and it’s certainly from as a supervisor what a lot of my. My clients seem to be looking for.

Melody Moore [00:59:15]:

And I think it’s when you do that, it actually makes it easier for clients to know what they’re choosing. Because I think one of the dangers with, you know, in a lot of organisations, they might get to chat to a couple of people is how do you differentiate between those people? Because often. And then it’s just based on whether you like them or not, rather than what is it that they bring.

Lawrence Barrett [00:59:43]:

I think that’s true and. But I think it’s interesting, you know, that the like bit is interesting because you could look at it as a kind of, you know, do I like this person? Are they smiley? Or whatever. But there’s also a kind of, you know, we’ve forgotten, in a way, rapport. And it’s interesting because rapport is a word that for me has been rediscovered in neurobiology in things like neural entrainment, the work Yuri Hassan, which is very good, and if people haven’t read it, they should do. It’s really cool stuff. Because rapport is that sense of connection and it’s an inch, an intuitive, projective sense of relationship that is often born out of this kind of, I have a need and you have a need, but you’re a bit better at dealing with it than me. So can we talk about that, this wounded healer idea? And I think that when coaches and indeed, indeed psychotherapists, because some of my supervision clients are psychotherapists in this, I work with them not on client supervision, but on practise supervision. A lot of that is a reconnection with who do I want to be? What are the conversations I need to be having with my clients where I can add value and they have a need that they can receive value from me.

Lawrence Barrett [01:00:48]:

And I think the more connected we are with that, and we all do that, know this, right? Even from the early days, there are clients that just. Just really interesting, really satisfying to work with. You may not even like them, by the way. Satisfying to work with. Those are the moments of practise where, if we can align ourselves, not only are we happier, but we’re doing better work.

Melody Moore [01:01:09]:

You mentioned some of your super supervisory clients are psychotherapists. You know, what is, what’s the difference between coaching and therapy? Is there any difference?

Lawrence Barrett [01:01:25]:

Well, I think there is a difference, but it’s. But it’s a complicated one. You know, you hear all sorts of very kind of simplistic differentials between the two and they don’t tend to stand up very well. You know, coaching is about looking forwards and therapy is about looking back, which is one of the things I’ve heard. Well, that would mean that Jungian psychology isn’t coaching, then, because it isn’t therapy, because it takes a progressive stance. If you look at, let’s say, CBT and cbc, they’re very similar in very many ways and light years, apart from, from Jungian analysis or Freudian analysis. And then you look at coaching, you know, you take something like NLP and compare it to, let’s say, psychodynamic coaching that you might be taught at Tavistock. Again, very, very different ways of working.

Lawrence Barrett [01:02:11]:

All valid. And I think. I think the. The difficulty is, is that we are working in a relational frame. That’s what we both have in common, which, by the way, we also have in common with parenting and friendship. So we’re in a relational frame and we are applying a kind of intentional level of theory and practise to our work. So there is a reason why we’re working. So it’s not simply just friendship or family.

Lawrence Barrett [01:02:41]:

And the way in which we do that and the work we do depends on our personality, it depends on our training and frame of reference, it depends on the time we have available, it depends on the client. So there’s what I would describe as a therapeutic zone in which there is an enormous blurring between coaching and psychotherapy. Where I think there is a difference is psychotherapy. To my mind, the talking cure is very, very important and I would say essential, where someone doesn’t recognise the problem or they can’t put words to the problem, where a client has no capacity to symbolise, no capacity to work with something that requires a long period of time and it requires relationship forming over a long period of time, a relationship which is trusted, which is holding and a slow circling towards the core issue. Psychotherapy is well suited to that. Coaching is not well suited to that. We work in smaller amounts, often more expensive, and it’s framed often by organisational parameters and time frames. And I think that difference is a difference.

Lawrence Barrett [01:03:57]:

I think that’s a material difference, otherwise the topics can vary. I mean, I work with clients who’ve been in analysis, for example, for several, several years, and they talk to me about stuff which is, you know, they talk about trauma and they talk about trauma because they can talk about trauma, because they’ve spent two years talking about trauma. And as a coach, I’m quite happy to talk to them about that in the context of their work. It’s good coaching work, actually, because it’s live and it talks about their relationship to the organisation, but they’re able to talk about it. If I was working with a client who was clearly unable to function well without exploring a topic that they were not comfortable or capable of exploring, I think that lends itself more to the time frames of psychotherapy.

Melody Moore [01:04:45]:

Yeah, I think you’re right. The time frames is, I think, one of the absolutely clear differences, isn’t it? Typically, although you do obviously have some people who have a coach who’s on a retainer and they will work. Work with them over a long period of time, but more typically you’re in a fixed number of hours or sessions or. Or whatever.

Lawrence Barrett [01:05:07]:

Yeah. And the organization’s always meddling in the background.

Melody Moore [01:05:10]:

Yes, yes. I have to say that quite often I. We have an official agenda and a unofficial agenda that runs alongside it. That’s that their two are related, but they don’t necessarily want to be talking to their boss or whoever in the organisation about that. Some of the things that we’re working on, because they’re very personal.

Lawrence Barrett [01:05:33]:

Although actually, I’d also say that I do know in some, let’s say, institutional psychotherapeutic context. So let’s say the nhs, the organisation, has a similar kind of prurient interest. So, again, that’s another issue that is a. It’s a difference. But is it really. I think it’s really complicated on that basis. And in part the training is about the coach, because I think coaches need to look very hard at themselves and think, what am I able to work with? And I’ll work with what I’m able to work with. And that is also a line that’s very problematic.

Lawrence Barrett [01:06:05]:

I mean, I’ve seen coaches work with things like vulnerability, for example, or neurodiversity, who are not qualified to do that work and leave a trail of chaos in their wake.

Melody Moore [01:06:15]:

Yes, yes. And it’s why I went back and did an additional three years training, which of course was significant longer than my original coach training, because I wanted to be able to. I was getting stuck and I wanted to be able to work and give people a more transformational experience than I felt I was able to, or happy to. Brilliant. Right, let’s jump back to my usual set of questions. What advice would you give to your younger self?

Lawrence Barrett [01:06:45]:

Well, yeah, I thought about this, actually, when I sort of was talking earlier with you and I. I can honestly say I wouldn’t give any advice to my younger self because my younger self wouldn’t listen to my advice. So broadly pointless thing. I’d probably just Say, keep on doing what you’re doing and we’ll live with whatever happens.

Melody Moore [01:07:04]:

That’s a bit like that back to the future argument, isn’t it? If you go back and then things would change and then you wouldn’t even be here giving advice, because things would have changed.

Lawrence Barrett [01:07:14]:

But, I mean, joking apart, I mean, if I look at the kind of mistakes I made when I was younger, they are the things that have made me what I am now, so.

Melody Moore [01:07:21]:

Exactly.

Lawrence Barrett [01:07:22]:

I wouldn’t be what I am without doing some of the disastrously awful things that I did. And. And I. I think, yeah, you know, in a way, ignorance is bliss. Not just because it’s nice to, you know, to. To not know, but because actually, in. In one way, it’s all part of the unfolding of life. You know, there is an inevitability to how we live.

Lawrence Barrett [01:07:43]:

And I think the core issue is just to pay attention to it. But if you’re not ready to pay attention, you won’t. Anyway, as I said to you when. When Peter said to me, you know, not everything is a fight. Lawrence. I remember at the time, I genuinely didn’t understand what he was talking about. It took me several years before I kind of got really what he was talking about and was able to do something with it.

Melody Moore [01:08:04]:

You know, I love what you just said there. And it’s just so reassuring as someone who works in development, that quite often some. You say something or something will happen at a time and it has no impact on that individual or appears to have no impact on them at all, yet years later it’s lodged in their brain and they suddenly understand it, and it can be transformational. That, for me, is both heartening and sad because you don’t always get to know about it. But, you know, that idea that it’s floated around in your brain for ages, you know, and then suddenly you’re like, oh, that’s what he meant.

Lawrence Barrett [01:08:45]:

But this is an important point because there’s an innate narcissism with coaching, which is. I’m going to ask a powerful question. Change your world.

Melody Moore [01:08:52]:

Which is just.

Lawrence Barrett [01:08:53]:

It’s just nonsense and very narcissistic nonsense. I’m very uncomfortable with that because I think, you know, the reality of our work is we kind of blunder into our clients and we sort of hopefully help them to think about something in a better way. And all we can really do in that time is hold them through that process of chaos in which something happens and it has something to do with us in the sense that we are there. And we are symbolically useful, but it doesn’t have anything really cognitive to do with us. It’s much more of an emotional state. And there was a great moment for me a few years ago which really reminded me of this, which was I bumped into a woman on. On the train going into London and who I hadn’t seen for years, and she’d been a coaching client sort of about seven or eight years previously, and she said to me, oh, it’s really good to meet you. You know, what you said to me changed my life.

Lawrence Barrett [01:09:46]:

And I thought, this is fantastic. You know, here I am. Powerful questions, very exciting. And she told me what I’d said to her and the two things that were striking to me was, one, I don’t remember remember saying it, but the really interesting thing was, I’m sure I didn’t say it because the thing she said I’d said is not the sort of thing I’d say. And I. I just remember sort of, as I. As I sort of broke this down, thinking, it’s interesting because she associates that idea with me, but almost certainly it comes from her. And all I did was provide a space within which she could have that excuse to.

Lawrence Barrett [01:10:20]:

To know what she already knew. I probably wouldn’t have suggested anyway, but it’s nice that it changed their life and it gave me a little bit of humility, I think, about the difference we can make to our clients.

Melody Moore [01:10:32]:

Yes, I totally agree. I totally agree. And I also. I believe that they. They always know the answer. It’s just our job is to kind of, you know, I have always have an image of our clients. They’re looking in, you know, to the left, the answers to the right, and they’re refusing to look to the right because they don’t want to. And our job is just to kind of help them, but they know the answer inside themselves.

Lawrence Barrett [01:10:59]:

Absolutely, I fully agree. And they. It’s just. It’s just difficult, you know, But. But at the same time, if we’re able to provide the container within which that can happen, that’s enough. And so if. If coaching is then just about providing a holding environment and a container within that environment. Yeah, that’s good enough.

Lawrence Barrett [01:11:17]:

You know, it works for me.

Melody Moore [01:11:19]:

I always think, on a leadership development programme, all the real work happens in the bar in the evening.

Lawrence Barrett [01:11:24]:

Oh, yeah, there’s lots of that when you’re not there. Yeah. And say in the years afterwards, because, you know, people realise things and then suddenly they’ll notice and then it’ll. It’ll start to sink in. And it’s still the right work. The fact that they weren’t ready for it at the point at which it happened. Doesn’t. Doesn’t actually.

Melody Moore [01:11:46]:

I had a great coaching client recently who was on a leadership programme and he said, you know, he’d been on this great leadership programme previously and he’d not made the most of it because he wasn’t ready for it. And it’s. And it was. He was ready this time and it was really interesting how he really threw himself into it, but he recognised that he’d not really taken much from the previous one because he knew he wasn’t ready.

Lawrence Barrett [01:12:11]:

Which, paradoxically, is a fantastic piece of learning.

Melody Moore [01:12:14]:

Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes, absolutely. A sort of meta piece of learning about the whole thing, but the real deal.

Lawrence Barrett [01:12:24]:

Right. Because we did. I remember working on a women’s programme and we were doing work on shadow, and one of the participants said to me, you know, I’m not prepared to. To look at my shadow, but I am prepared to admit that I might have one. And for me, that was like, good, that’s enough.

Melody Moore [01:12:39]:

Yes.

Lawrence Barrett [01:12:41]:

Everything else is done because I think there’s this fantasy by the coach that the outcome that the organisation needs and the person states and the person the coach needs is the outcome we’ll get. And the reality is development. It’s probably not going to happen. Something will happen and hopefully it’ll be something good.

Melody Moore [01:12:58]:

Yes. Yes. I find it very difficult. You know, some organisations want some kind of coaching contract and I’m. And I’m like, you know, really, in this period of time, you think you’re going to get some really concrete outcomes that, you know, life’s not like that makes me uncomfortable.

Lawrence Barrett [01:13:19]:

Right.

Melody Moore [01:13:19]:

Tell me about books you’d recommend, because I will clearly go out and buy all of them. I liked the idea of the ones you mentioned so far.

Lawrence Barrett [01:13:27]:

What’s your book called?

Melody Moore [01:13:28]:

Let’s advertise your book first.

Lawrence Barrett [01:13:30]:

My book is. Yeah, my book’s great. Buy my book. It’s called A Jungian Approach To Coaching and it’s a. A kind of short summary of Jungian theory and. And how it may apply, or some Jungian theory, not bits I’ve left out, and how it might apply into. Into a kind of modern coaching practise. I think for people who are interested in Jungian work.

Lawrence Barrett [01:13:51]:

I mean, there’s just a couple off top of my head. I always recommend reading Jung’s biography, which is called Memories, Dreams, Reflections. It’s a good read if you want to understand Jung and if anyone wants to Talk about Jung or read Jung. I’d recommend that as your entry point rather than some of the more difficult texts. So that’s fun. Another book that I often give to people, and again, I’d recommend, because it’s a really good kind of entry point to Jungian work, but also it’s a brilliant read and it’s one that is profoundly important, is a book on midlife by James Hollis, which is called the Middle Passage, which is. It’s a fabulous book, actually. Very small, very thin, really, really good, very inspirational.

Lawrence Barrett [01:14:35]:

But otherwise, I mean, I think there’s so much to read. I mean, what I would always recommend to any coach who is developing their practises, just read lots of stuff and see what sticks and follow your first, you know, because there’s an awful lot of things that don’t speak to you and. And that probably says as much about your practise and the way it’s developing as it does about the. The book and focus on the things where you go, yes, I know that. That is what I believe. Read some more of that. And. And although it, you know, there’s an issue of not necessarily confronting yourself with difference, and I think that is a risk.

Lawrence Barrett [01:15:11]:

I think at the same time, I would take a more progressive stance and think, well, become better at the things that matter to you.

Melody Moore [01:15:20]:

One of my guests said, find a book you like and really read it multiple times. And. And I just thought, what, you know, I’m terrible for, like, reading a third of a book and discarding it. But, yeah, read it multiple times. I thought, oh, that’s really interesting.

Lawrence Barrett [01:15:38]:

I love that as well. Piece of advice. I think that’s absolutely true. Yeah, I buy that.

Melody Moore [01:15:41]:

Although, interestingly, there are a few books that I absolutely love that I have read multiple times because they really, you know, work books, not fiction. Right, last question. Any themes you have observed whilst we’ve been having this conversation? Themes about yourself or your approach? I’m curious.

Lawrence Barrett [01:16:04]:

I think it’s. It’s interesting. It’s quite a personal podcast, this, and I think one of the things that is always interesting to me is how hard it is to talk about ourselves. And I think it’s important to remember that because we can, as coaches, get quite blase about having these conversations with our clients. But clients, to talk about themselves is a difficult thing to do. It requires a degree of rapport, it requires a degree of trust. And even then, you know, am I really going to go there? Do I really want to talk about it? You know, it’s been, for me quite a personal conversation and I’ve enjoyed that. But at the same time, there’s still this feeling of, yeah, you know, that was quite personal and I do this for a living, as do you.

Melody Moore [01:16:54]:

Yeah.

Lawrence Barrett [01:16:55]:

And I think it’s just a useful reminder.

Melody Moore [01:16:58]:

Absolutely. Yes. I’ve been interviewed on my own podcast and I absolutely hear what you’re saying, but I really genuinely appreciate it. I have loved this. I could honestly talk to you for another two hours easily. But thank you so much. This has been fantastic.

Lawrence Barrett [01:17:17]:

Thank you. It’s been a lot of fun, actually. Really cool. I’ve enjoyed it.

Melody Moore [01:17:20]:

Thank you. This podcast is brought to you by Liberare Consulting. If you enjoyed today’s episode, hit subscribe. So you’re the first to hear new content, conversations. And if you found it valuable, do a friend a favour and share it with them too.