Debbie Hayler Podcast Transcript

Melody Moore [00:00:02]:
Welcome to the Secret Resume podcast. I’m Melody Moore, consultant, coach and all round curious human being. I’ve spent over 20 years helping leaders unlock potential their own, their teams and their organisations. On this podcast we dive into our guests messy magical lives to hear the stories that don’t make it onto their resume or, or their LinkedIn profile, but shape who they really are at work and in life. Before we dive in, I want to tell you about something that I’m really excited about which is our being free membership. We’re developing an online community which is designed for people who are interested in personal growth. If you’re navigating career transitions, maybe feeling stuck or burnt out or simply seeking more meaning in your life, then this is for you. Membership gives you access to a range of resources, a supportive community and monthly group coaching calls.

Melody Moore [00:01:00]:
It will allow you to explore what freedom means to you on your own terms. Head to www.liberareconsulting.co.uk being free to join the waitlist. My guest today is Debbie Hayler. Debbie, so happy to have you here today. Sorry, losing my voice. So whilst I cough quietly in the background, do you want to introduce yourself to everybody? Yes.

Debbie Hayler [00:01:32]:
No. Thank you so much for having me on. It’s my first podcast. I am very excited to be actually talking to you and I think for me it was the topic around what you guys talk about just interests me so much in the fact that I, hopefully what we’re going to cover today is a lot of what shaped me is completely outside of my, my CV and it’s the way I look at L and D in structure. So I’ve worked in L and d for over 10 years now. Started at the bottom which we’ll, we’ll touch on a bit later and, and kind of now have built up to that, that leader strategic level. It’s a, it’s a weird one when someone kind of asks kind of who you are and how to introduce self and I guess for me, I’m 33, I have a dog that, she’s a goldador. She is my fur baby.

Debbie Hayler [00:02:26]:
I am one of those kind of crazy dogs. She is my baby through and through. She’s normally sat in the office behind me and gets all the attention in any of my meetings. But whenever anyone kind of asks me who I am, it goes back to I am a crazy dog mom. And I love it, absolutely love it on that side of things. But yeah, it’s always just an interesting one and I think actually hopefully you’ll find out more about me. And what shaped me. As we talk a little bit more today.

Melody Moore [00:02:56]:
Fantastic. And I think we’re going to talk about some really interesting things. But first I have to ask you, what is a Goldador? Because I’ve never heard of a Golda door before.

Debbie Hayler [00:03:05]:
So she is a cross between a Labrador and a golden retriever. Looks more like a Lab, but she’s bigger. She. She always gets called a boy, bless her, because she’s a lot stockier. But yes, she’s one of those fancy breeds of a mix.

Melody Moore [00:03:21]:
My dog. People think she’s a boy because she’s got a beard. I think.

Debbie Hayler [00:03:27]:
I always think it’s one of those things that naturally you go towards whatever you have. I find myself saying that all dogs are girls because I’ve got a girl. And I think naturally, if you’ve got a boy, you always call it a boy dog. So, yeah, I’ve learned to. I’ve given up on the trying to dress her in pink to be like, no, she is a girl. I’m kind of just like to call her a boy. That’s fine.

Melody Moore [00:03:46]:
Exactly.

Debbie Hayler [00:03:47]:
Exactly.

Melody Moore [00:03:48]:
No, and it’s like I’m not putting my. Actually quite a lot of my dog’s clothes. Not that she has many, but her little coat and things do look quite masc. Typical masculine colours. So it’s kind of my fault too, but I’m kind of rebelling against, like. I’m not dressing her in pink just because she’s girl.

Debbie Hayler [00:04:05]:
No. Give up on that side of things. Definitely.

Melody Moore [00:04:11]:
We could spend the whole podcast talking about dogs and I would love that.

Debbie Hayler [00:04:15]:
Frankly, I think I could talk for hours about dogs.

Melody Moore [00:04:19]:
Debbie met my dog because she was wanting to jump up on my knee. So you’ve already met mine. But let’s dive into your story. Really looking forward to hearing you talk about this. So we’re going to go right back to when you were at school.

Debbie Hayler [00:04:33]:
Yes.

Melody Moore [00:04:34]:
And certain things happened to you when you were at school. So do you want to start off by talking about that?

Debbie Hayler [00:04:40]:
I guess for me, it’s a phase of my life. I don’t like to look back and regret things, but it’s a phase of my life that I think now, when I look back and think about it, really has shaped how I’ve got to where I have. I was bullied through school, all the way back to when I was in primary school, so I never really had a great experience with it. I didn’t know back then, but I suffered from ibs and so back then it was something I was looking into. And it was caused by stress. So it was an ever growing cycle of. I’d go in, people would be out, why were you off? And then it would stem into kind of, oh, you’re the girl. It’s always off all the time.

Debbie Hayler [00:05:21]:
But it would cause that ever growing cycle of. Then I’d be off through stress again. So from all the way from primary school over through to secondary school, I didn’t have a great experience socially. It was never the fact that I wasn’t academic. I was always quite into, you know, I was very into biology and liked learning French and was very into the creative side of things. So it wasn’t kind of the academic side. It was more, I think the social aspect of school and the bullying eventually led me to leaving school in year nine, to where I then was homeschooled. So homeschooling is a very different situation.

Debbie Hayler [00:05:58]:
I don’t think, particularly at that point, you’re not really able to learn too much more. So it’s kind of like leaving in year nine. It was kind of just getting myself ready for GCSEs. So I didn’t. I. I didn’t leave school with great GCSEs, I left with, I think, four GCSEs in the end. So I did go to college, which I guess gave me a different view on that social aspect. But I think by that point I’d been a little bit scarred of the academic route, so university was out of the question for me.

Debbie Hayler [00:06:34]:
It wasn’t. I didn’t want to. I wanted to kind of move on from that chapter, I think, And I’d chosen to study performing arts at college. So again, nothing to do with where I’m at now. It’s. I’ve. I’ve had a very kind of colourful past in finding my way through to where I am now. But it’s shaped, I guess, how I think about it, and I think it shaped a lot of how I now look at people and.

Debbie Hayler [00:07:02]:
And their potential. Because I think back, you know, we’re talking over 10 years ago now, probably, I mean, 33. We’re talking probably more on the 15 years ago when you’re starting to look on getting a job. I think back then, academics was very important to people. I think there’s still industries now where they will look and go, oh, you don’t have a degree, so I’m not even going to bother interviewing you. Back then, I felt that a lot when I was starting to look at jobs. It was kind of like, oh, well, you didn’t get a degree. So how capable are you? It was always kind of that academic fit with your capability.

Debbie Hayler [00:07:39]:
So I felt getting the opportunity to get an interview is harder. I think once you’re able to kind of talk around that a little bit more. It never affected me getting a job, but I think it definitely affected that opportunities that were opened up. And I think for me, without even knowing it, it’s probably what has stemmed part of where I’ve gone to into L and D because I want to help more people that don’t have that potential. That obvious, oh, you know, you’re really academic or you’re book smart. It’s more. I always kind of say that that life smart you have, you’ve picked up other skills through just experience and things. So, you know, I think for me, I have always been very driven by being a certain title by a certain age.

Debbie Hayler [00:08:27]:
I think that’s always. I’ve always kind of once I knew what career I wanted to do, it’s like, right, this is where I want to get to by a certain age. And then it was about, okay, how do I now prove that? And I think I always subconsciously, in the back of my mind thought not having some of that academic would really affect where I was getting to. And I felt I had to kind of prove myself more than maybe someone that could go, well, I’ve been to university and I’ve got this degree, so I’ve obviously got these skills and this knowledge that this person over here wouldn’t have. So there, I think played a big part on that finding out as well. I think because I didn’t go to university, I wasn’t so set on what did I want to. So my early career, I changed quite a lot in terms of different industries, doing different roles. I started out in retail, I’ve worked in office management.

Debbie Hayler [00:09:24]:
I qualified as a hairdresser. I’ve done fitness, aerobic, constructing. I went through a variety of different things before eventually falling into L and D, which I think most L and D people you talk to. I’ve yet to come across one that said that is what I’ve always wanted to do. They go, oh, I just fell into it. But I think with that came some stigma as well. There was always that, well, why did you move so much? And that I think kind of fueled something in me going, why are you looking at the negative side of it? That I’ve moved, but actually I’ve moved industries, I’ve moved careers. And along the line I’ve gained skills, different skills that now I’m able to utilise for the role that I’m in, you know, even down to the retail customer service.

Debbie Hayler [00:10:11]:
First job at Waitrose, that customer service being kind of drilled into me, was able to carry me through. So actually now I can really communicate with people, I can speak to them, I can empathise with them, I can, you know, if they’re upset, I got that skill, that background. So I think as we kind of, I guess, talk more through my career and what I’m currently working on, it really does stem back to this, me not having that certificate that says I’ve got a qualification and actually what skills have I gained along the way that has shaped me now?

Melody Moore [00:10:51]:
I’m interested in a few things, actually, that you just talked about. One is around, do you think being homeschooled, so therefore having an experience of a different kind of learning and education, do you think that plays out in terms of your approach to L and D?

Debbie Hayler [00:11:15]:
I think not necessarily the homeschooled side of it. I think it opened my eyes to the ability to get to the same position as someone else without that piece of paper. And which is why part of my career spanned very heavily on the apprenticeship side of things. And I’m still a huge advocate on that side. It’s part of. I mean, it’s. Where my career started was graduates and working with graduates and working with apprentices and actually seeing the difference between which skills they both bring, where their strengths are and where their development areas are. And that was quite interesting to see.

Debbie Hayler [00:12:04]:
I think the homeschooling side of things probably affected my imposter syndrome more than anything else. I think it led me to sort of thinking that actually I would be maybe more judged because I hadn’t gone and got those juice. You know, I didn’t don’t have many GCSEs. And I remember, you know, putting CVS together going, oh, this is going to be embarrassing. I’m going to put down, I’ve only got four GCSes. I only have the equivalent because I did a B tech at college, so I’ve only got the equivalent to. I think it was an AS level and I haven’t gone to university. What’s that going to mean for me? What people are going to think about that? Are they going to give me that opportunity? And I think some of that stemmed from being kind of shut down in places and people sort of being like, oh, you don’t have that experience? And I would kind of go, okay.

Debbie Hayler [00:13:02]:
That’s obviously that assumption of, well, I don’t have a degree, so I think some of it is definitely that imposter syndrome that sits and lies around that. And as I said at the beginning, I don’t like to regret a lot of things, but sometimes I do wonder, if I hadn’t gone homeschooled and I’d walked away with 12 GCSes and then gone to college and done that normal route, would I be in a different position than I am now? What would that look like?

Melody Moore [00:13:32]:
Have you. So I guess I’m curious as to how much you feel it’s your imposter syndrome and you’ve held yourself back and how much have you actually had a door shut in your face because you haven’t got, you know, the. All the qualifications.

Debbie Hayler [00:13:54]:
It’s an interesting one. I think the early days, I think I made a lot of assumptions around the fact that if I wasn’t getting an interview, then therefore they were shutting me down for that reason. I think a lot of it stems from. I’ve always been very lucky that I’m. I can talk a lot. So interviews have never really been struggle for me to show my true self and be able to kind of bring my best self to the forefront, I would say. But it was. Getting that opportunity was a bit harder, I think.

Debbie Hayler [00:14:31]:
Now, working within HR and having been on the recruitment side a little bit and done, you know, assessment centres, I see how companies have sifted CVS in the past and there would, you know, even it would go down to, well, they don’t have a qualification or they haven’t done extra work experience, down to those kind of little things. And I sit there and I always go, well, then I wouldn’t have made it in front of you. If that’s how you’re kind of deciding between who’s going to get the opportunity to come in for an interview, I wouldn’t have got that opportunity because all the things you’re saying is the tick box that you’re looking for wouldn’t have been there. And it’s conversations I’ve had with managers at recruitment level. It’s kind of like, you know, are you looking between those lines? Are you looking at what they’re trying to tell you between it, or are you literally just going, oh, no, no qualification, you’re out. So I think, yeah, I’ve kind of seen it on two sides. So I do think that. I think less so now.

Debbie Hayler [00:15:35]:
I think the way that the industry is moving, it is moving more into that skills base, both on the L and D and the recruitment side. But I think going back to my early career, I think there would have been times where actually I, my CV was dismissed either due to lack of a degree or the fact that I had moved around jobs quite a bit because that was always kind of seen as quite a negative thing from people.

Melody Moore [00:16:10]:
It’s interesting that you being there though, allows you to have that conversation. I think that’s so powerful. And you can say to them, well, do you think I’m any good? Because I didn’t tick any of those boxes. And yeah, I think it’s, it, it shows how having diversity in a hiring situation is really important because you can put a different perspective across.

Debbie Hayler [00:16:35]:
It was, it was very. It definitely. I think as I got into more of my senior roles and I was part of more of that recruitment phase, being able to kind of go, well, you know, why aren’t you giving apprenticeships more a chance? Because I think, you know, when the apprenticeship Levy came out and a lot of people were, oh, do we want to get apprentices? You know, I’d rather stick with the graduates. It was kind of like, you’re not giving that other side, you know, the non traditional academic, those that actually learn better through doing. I’ve always been more of a, you show me something or, you know, I can then pick it up and I can do it. If you give me a book, it goes through one ear and out the other with me. And I think that’s the opportunity that the apprenticeship versus graduate side of things has given a little bit more as well. So, yeah, I think having that mixed diversity of backgrounds and starting to see that come through at leadership level is really refreshing that it’s not just people that have gone that traditional path anymore.

Melody Moore [00:17:39]:
Well, and I think particularly with the, you know, when I went to university there was no cost to go to university. You know, you paid your, and even you paid to, to live, but there was no fees. But these days it’s so incredibly expensive to go to university that there’ll be a whole swathe of people that, regardless of whether they could or couldn’t academically have qualified, will choose not to go because the cost and they don’t want to come out the other end with a massive debt.

Debbie Hayler [00:18:12]:
Yeah, yeah. And I think it is, isn’t it? It’s that it’s quite that kind of interesting because I mean, my partner, he went to university, I didn’t. We now earn very similar, but actually what we take away is very different because he’s now still having to pay back his university on that side and actually it’s just quite interesting to see that we both got to the same levels in our career and taking very different pathways. But yeah, financially he is worse off on a month because he’s having to pay that that side of it. And you know, I completely, you know, as we talk through more of the stages of my career that I’ve been through, I am a huge advocate for both the apprenticeship and the graduate side of things. It really shaped part of my career. So I’m not for one or the other, but I think it’s really important that it’s not looked upon that one is more important than the other in terms of having that certificate versus having those kind of experiences.

Melody Moore [00:19:17]:
Yeah, absolutely. Let’s move on then. We’ve got lots to talk about. But let’s talk about. There was a TED Talk in particular that you said really has stuck with you and really had a big influence on you. Do you want to say more about that?

Debbie Hayler [00:19:31]:
Yes. So I, this was in my second role in L and D. Kind of my first official. I ended up in my first role, ended up self studying. So I’d kind of self studied, got my first level 3 CIPD and was going into my first kind of proper L and D coordinator role. That that was the title and it wasn’t kind of stemmed off something else. It was for a law firm in London. And the first day they basically said to me, can you go to a networking conference over the other side of London by yourself, come back and report on everything.

Debbie Hayler [00:20:10]:
And at that point I went, oh my God, this is way out of my comfort zone. One I’ve got to find my way around London which I’m not great at directions. Anyone that still meets me now will tell you that not great at directions at all. So that was playing through my head and the thought of networking with other people at that point I was kind of like, okay, I am going to have to network here with a bunch of people that maybe been in this, this space for a while, know what they’re talking about. And I went along and I still to this day I talk about this moment. I deliver training around this moment. I went along and was lucky enough to get to listen to Amy Cuddy’s presence TED Talk live in person and got to meet her. Still got my sign book from her pride of place takes place in my house because it really is a moment that shaped me.

Debbie Hayler [00:21:12]:
And if you haven’t listened to her TED Talk, I would, I would highly recommend it. It is all around, I guess one of her sayings from it is fake it till you become it. And it’s quite an interesting one because you always say that to people and they go, why do you want to fake something? And actually the psychology, she’s a behavioural scientist and the psychology behind it is all around your. Your body language and the confidence that you can give yourself just through your body language. And I fully believe that this shaped where I am now because I was able to trick my mind into faking how comfortable I was in situations until it became out of my comfort zone and I developed that skill. And so sorry, went into my comfort zone, should I say? So it kind of. I’d gone through that fear zone of going, okay, I, I don’t maybe belong here. I always wanted to be in.

Debbie Hayler [00:22:07]:
You know, when I figured out what L and D is, I was like, I want to be a trainer or stand up there and I do want to deliver. That was my worst nightmare. The thought of standing up and talking in front of people was my worst nightmare. And going to this conference actually gave me the ability to go, why can trick my body language into telling myself that it’s okay, that actually I am in a safe environment and I, I can do this. And I still use the techniques. Today I teach techniques out in. I’ve got a course called Building Confidence that I teach out and we talk about how to move through your fear zones through to the development zone and getting out of that comfort zone and then making that thing become your comfort zone. And I think it’s the most powerful thing.

Debbie Hayler [00:22:52]:
And I always say to people now, just, just fake it until you become it. And the fake it to become it is that one day you do wake up and you suddenly go, actually, I, this is, I can do this. This isn’t. This is, you know, the same as me getting on a bike and just knowing how to ride it, you know, it’s. It becomes natural to you. And I think it’s for me that that has been defining moment in how I am as an L and D person. And again, I think ties back to that, looking for people that maybe don’t realise they have that potential there and giving them the skills they need to bring out that potential. So, you know, it’s not about, oh, you can go and be a doctor if you don’t have the qualifications, it’s that, well, you do have the, the skill, the knowledge there, but you don’t believe in yourself.

Debbie Hayler [00:23:43]:
And I think it has helped me move past some of that imposter syndrome in some places.

Melody Moore [00:23:50]:
I Love that. And I love that you met her and with, you know, saw it live. That’s fabulous. I think that’s amazing. She’s also known. She’s known for the power stance thing, isn’t it? Not this. It’s not that, is it? It’s.

Debbie Hayler [00:24:05]:
Yeah, it’s the super Superman or Superwoman pose that was branded on her and. And she talks all about that in the podcast, in her TED Talk, should I say? But yeah, it’s. And it’s a pose I teach and people always look at me like I’m absolutely crazy to do it, but, you know, it’s amazing what it can do to your mind. And obviously the Superwoman Superman pose is exaggerated, it’s making yourself as big, but it’s actually about teaching yourself the smaller versions of that pose that you can do discreetly that put yourself in a bit more of a state of mind. Because what she kind of talks around is the fact that animals, we are like animals. So if an animal is feeling scared, they get really small. If they’re feeling confident and, you know, if they’re the alpha, they get really big. And it’s about using that to trick your mind.

Debbie Hayler [00:25:04]:
In the same way as how you can change a conversation with someone just for your body language, you can actually change how you think as well through your body language. So I highly recommend it. If you haven’t watched the TED Talk.

Melody Moore [00:25:18]:
Yet, and I 100% agree. And I think quite often, as L and D professionals, we think that we have to change someone’s mindset first, particularly when you think about organisational change. For instance. For instance, people think, you know, someone has to believe something in order to do it. I don’t believe that. I think that you can focus on the behaviours first and the mindset will come afterwards. You don’t have to be constantly trying to influence people purely through the sort of intellectual or emotional or whatever it is. So I’m totally with you.

Melody Moore [00:25:55]:
That there’s something about accepting and acknowledging that behaviour can come first.

Debbie Hayler [00:26:01]:
Yeah.

Melody Moore [00:26:02]:
And I. I don’t use her phrase, but fake it till you make it has long been a phrase of mine that, you know, that. And I think it applies to all sorts of things. You know, I’ve. I’ve applied it even to things like empathy. You know, if you say to somebody, oh, that must have been really difficult for you. You know, if you’re not naturally an empathetic person, actually doing some empathetic things and saying some empathetic things might then make you think, oh, actually, maybe it was difficult, difficult for them. And it kind of puts you in, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s really clever, I think, to think of it that way around rather than all kind of.

Debbie Hayler [00:26:38]:
Tricking your psychology, isn’t it? It’s tricking your brain of, you know, I’ll do it. Even now when I’m presenting, I, I remember when I first started doing my Building with Confidence course. I was doing it to apprenticeships, my apprentices and my grads, and they are, you know, that’s the one thing I, I absolutely, absolutely love about working with younger generations than me is they will just tell you, they will be brutally honest with you. And in this course, one of the things I actually get them to do for my own learning and to almost kind of reassure them that it’s okay as well, is I will ask them to tell me where I wasn’t confident when I was presenting what I was doing. And through that I’ve learned different things that I was doing that then I was able to reverse and put in coping mechanisms for myself. You know, even down to a small thing they spotted out was if I’m confident in a subject, I would roll my sleeves up and if I was not feeling too confident, I would roll them down. So I started wearing short sleeve tops. But then I couldn’t, I had no, I had nowhere to do that action.

Debbie Hayler [00:27:49]:
And then it got to a point where that was almost trained out of me. It was kind of like, well, you don’t need to do that anymore. You couldn’t do it, so now you won’t do it. I can wear long sleeve, short sleeve tops. And it does, it doesn’t manifest in that same way. And so I do truly think that, as you said, it’s, you know, we talk about mindsets a lot and you know, in L and D, mindsets are a strong area where as a company that’s, I guess that’s an end goal of a lot of companies. It’s the mindset we want to build as a company. But actually it’s that behaviour and I guess in the same way as animals, in the same way, when we were talking about dogs, you train a dog and you have to train them several times, times.

Debbie Hayler [00:28:30]:
You’re training yourself and you’re, you’re training your brain in that same way. And I think that’s really part of what she dives into with that psychology is the fact that if you’re not comfortable and you send your brain signals, you’re not comfortable, you always won’t be Comfortable. But if you’re not comfortable and you trick your brain into thinking that you are actually okay in that scenario, it will become easier and you’ll be okay with that situation. So, yeah, it’s definitely shaped how I do things. I find myself when I’m standing up presenting, I might accidentally cross my legs and I’ll go, oh, no, quickly uncross your legs, because you’ll start to send signals that you’re not happy up here presenting anymore. And it’s always quite an interesting one when you look at kind of female male dynamics as well in that sense, because through history, women are taught that you cross your legs or you cross your ankles, and that makes you more kind of ladylike, and you’re to sit more ladylike, like, whereas men would have their legs a bit more kind of wider open. And actually what that just that tiny, small movement is sending signals to your brain that maybe you’re not as comfortable or as confident in that area, although.

Melody Moore [00:29:42]:
You’Re smaller, isn’t it? It’s like not taking up as much space.

Debbie Hayler [00:29:46]:
Absolutely.

Melody Moore [00:29:47]:
And that has such a broader application in terms of the space that you take up.

Debbie Hayler [00:29:54]:
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s even now, when, you know, if I’m presenting or talking, I always tend to use my hands because it’s about making yourself bigger. And I was listening to Dire of CEO. There was a podcast on there recently about public speaking, and he was kind of talking about just even the angle, the way your hands, body language fascinates me and always has since I listened to this. This podcast. But there’s so much I think you can just do to put yourself in that comfortable position and then say, fake it till you become it or fake it so you make it. It is that you’re not. You know, I say that to some people.

Debbie Hayler [00:30:33]:
As I said, they’re always like, why would I want to fake it? And it’s actually like you’re not faking something you don’t want. You’re faking the thing you want until it becomes part of you and it becomes natural.

Melody Moore [00:30:44]:
So I love that. Tricking yourself. So you mentioned there you worked with grads. You’ve worked with apprentice apprenticeships. I’m saying that wrong. Let’s talk about the grads first. Yes. That was the empowering leadership.

Melody Moore [00:31:01]:
Is that right?

Debbie Hayler [00:31:02]:
Yes. So I. My first job, I actually started this job as just a kind of team assistant to a finance team. And I was eager to get involved in more. And that is where I felt met, kind of met my first empowering leader that really Kind of showed me what lnd was. She, she was very much. And for me, empowering leaders all comes back to one thing that they all kind of said to me. I trust you, now make it happen.

Debbie Hayler [00:31:40]:
And you know, at that time, as I said, I was working as a team assistant. She was running this global graduate programme and she wanted help developing it down to, you know, even at that point it was developing the policies, putting on their huge graduate conference. And that to me really opened my eyes of that ability to see people grow into their best selves. And I, that for me was kind of that light bulb moment. I was like, this, this is the thing that’s going to give me satisfaction because all the other jobs I’d had, you know, for example, hairdressing, I loved hairdressing. But I remember getting promoted and I was like, I’m just still going to be cutting hair. I’m going to see the same clients every six to 12 weeks. I was like, it’s not, it’s not fulfilling me.

Debbie Hayler [00:32:30]:
I can’t see myself doing this forever. And we’re kind of getting involved where it was that not micromanaging, not telling me I have to just go and write this document or put a schedule together. She really wanted to know my thoughts. She wanted to kind of go, you know, we’re looking to do this. What could you do from it? What, you know, I’m going to entrust you to come back to me and make something happen in this area. And I learned so much from those graduates. They were international. So the way the graduate programme worked there is that their second year they would go into a different role in a different country.

Debbie Hayler [00:33:14]:
And that was so rewarding to get that, be able to get that kind of knowledge from different cultures as well and see how they learn, how they engage, what they, what their aspirations were. And it’s, it’s seeing that growth of them coming in. You know, they come in from university, they’re fresh out of school, this is their first kind of real job experience and watching some of them. But, you know, now I’m still in touch with some of my first graduates and they’re directors at companies. And I’m like to be able to say that I played a part in that, that I helped you think about where your career was going, that I went, that’s what I want to be doing. And that, you know, if I wasn’t, I said I wasn’t even qualified in L and D, then didn’t really know what it was. And she just took a chance on me. So that.

Debbie Hayler [00:34:15]:
That was my first. Yeah, I think that was my first opening my eyes to L and D, but also opening my eyes to what leadership should be and what I would want out of a manager and what really helped helps build and guide you. And then as I kind of went through my, you know, I. I haven’t always had great managers and leaders, I think, like all of us, but I landed my role at Surrey Satellite and there I started as a maternity cover and my manager there again just went, I trust you now. Make it happen. And the trust she gave me was bigger at the time than what I thought I should be getting. So that was when apprenticeship levies just come about. And she went, we want an apprenticeship programme.

Debbie Hayler [00:35:16]:
You go, you create it and to be given that opportunity. And she kind of went, I’m here, but you’ve got this. You just go, if you need something, I’m here, but I fully trust you just to get on with it. And, you know, apprenticeships have always got. They’ve always had a soft spot in my heart because I think it. Not only were they defining in the fact that they were part of that journey of me growing as an L and D professional, but I was also part of their journey in that same way. And I think there is a huge power in having leaders around you that don’t micromanage, that really kind of go like, well, I hired you to do a role. I’m not going to restrict you in that role either.

Debbie Hayler [00:36:04]:
I want you to come to me with ideas. And obviously, you know, there’s always a level of. Or maybe we can’t do it because of X, Y and Z. But there was always an answer as to why we couldn’t do it. It wasn’t just shut down, as, you know, I hadn’t asked you to do this or told you to do this. And that has, you know, for me, I always look back and go, two people that got me to where I am today in my career. It’s going to be the first. My first manager, Sati, who just introduced me to the world of L and D and was happy to bring me on that journey.

Debbie Hayler [00:36:43]:
And then my manager that saw me grow from that coordinator all the way through to manager and supported me on that journey. Marie, they play a huge part into how I’ve got to where I am today.

Melody Moore [00:36:57]:
And you’d said, you know, obviously you’ve worked with both apprentices and graduates. You said that you can see some clear differences, some similarities. How would you classify those?

Debbie Hayler [00:37:07]:
So I think the similarities is that they are both really fresh into the workplace. They want to, they want to get somewhere. I always remember having one of the things we did early with our. Both our grads and apprentices is talking to them around what they wanted, what, what they see in five years. And they always have that kind of. That, that almost kind of unsquashed aspiration of where they want to get to. Nothing’s too far reach from them. I remember talking to one of my apprentices early when we did the PDP with them and they were like, in two years, I want to be the CEO.

Debbie Hayler [00:37:54]:
And I thought, you know what, just having that aspiration is amazing and I don’t want to squash that. I want to make that come. Like, I want to make that aspiration come true to a degree, but in a way that you can actually do achieve that. I don’t want to squash it and say, you know, two years, are you having a laugh? Kind of. You’re not going to go from apprentice to CEO in two years, but actually going, okay, we want to get to CEO, so what do we need to do then? What’s that pathway going to take? And I think the differences that I see between them is your grads come in and they have that, that built knowledge, so they have that kind of understanding there because that’s what they’ve studied. But I would always see that they would, a lot of the time lack that, that confidence to go and approach people. They would lack the kind of communication the more, I guess, behavioural, soft skill side of things versus your apprenticeships. When they come in, there’s that ability that they need to learn that skill, they need to learn that knowledge, that technical side of it.

Debbie Hayler [00:39:00]:
But they come in with the questions, they’re not afraid to communicate. And because they’re growing with the company, they’re building that technical knowledge at the same time as they are learning the world of, you know, the corporate industry, that being not afraid to ask questions that may be graduates might find a little bit more like, oh, if I ask that question, am I going to look stupid? Apprenticeships, they don’t have that care. They’re kind of like, I want to learn as much as possible and I will ask as much as possible and I’ll go out there and get it. And it’s my. I remember my first cohort in the apprenticeship programme. I actually took a break from L and D after I was at sstl and that was through management changing and me and the new manager were on just different waves of working and it really started to make me question myself as an as did I really want to do lnd anymore was I enjoying it? But I made a promise to myself I wouldn’t leave until my first cohort had finished their apprenticeship scheme. And watching them grow from. Some of them were as young as 16 when they first started with us, us and watching them grow and have that confidence in them was so rewarding for me.

Debbie Hayler [00:40:24]:
And I think it’s something I look back on because they taught me as much as hopefully they learn on the programme. But I fully believe there is a power of that reverse mentoring and there’s that power of if you want to get to a good level of leadership, you really need to understand that any level, any generation, they can come in and they can teach you just as much as you can teach them. And you know, they really did. As I said, they, they tested me and, and I grew with them. I went from being a coordinator to a manager in the same space that they came in as 16 year olds and completed their programme. So they helped me develop my training skills, they helped me develop my, my manager skills. And, you know, there were definitely testing times through a brand new apprenticeship programme. But, yeah, I think that’s been for me, one of the most rewarding parts that I look back on so far.

Debbie Hayler [00:41:26]:
And it’s so nice to see them still thriving and really achieving. I love looking and seeing that they’ve got to where they told me they wanted to get to now.

Melody Moore [00:41:39]:
And what would you say in terms of, you know, a lot of the people I will work with, for instance, and I’m sure lots of other L and D professionals will maybe work with people who are much later on in their career. How would you say it’s different working with, you know, kids who are, you know, basically my daughter’s age or, you know, graduates, not much older. What. Or is there a difference, do you notice, I suppose, between maybe a 16 year old and a 21 year old? Is there a big difference there? Or, you know, I’m just thinking about this whole kind of rational differences, etcetera, I’m just really interested in your view.

Debbie Hayler [00:42:20]:
I think each of them have their strengths and I think everyone can always be developing. I think for those that are new into the work world, whether that’s graduates, apprenticeships or you’re swapping a career and you’re just starting. I think, as I said, there’s that level of they’re willing to ask more questions because they want to know more. You still sometimes get that level of, well, I maybe deserve more. I Think sometimes in the younger generations, a lot of it comes around to that kind of money side of things. You know, they all, everyone, everyone wants to buy a house. So a lot of what I found with, like, if you’re having PDP conversations and you’re saying, you know what, where do you want to see yourself is earning a certain amount of money, it’s not so much attached to that career side of it. And then as you dig deeper into it, it comes out that actually there is drivers that they want to do in terms of their career, and it is more than just that money side of things.

Debbie Hayler [00:43:31]:
And then on the flip side, I think with managers, sometimes there’s that scaredness to ask questions because it’s like, okay, well, I’m already at leadership level, so surely I should know this. And sometimes there’s that unwillingness to want to learn because again, you know, you, you have that facade around you that, well, if you’re a leader. But I think it does come back to the company culture a lot of the time and the companies that you’re in and, and if you’re, you know, if you’re seeing your CEO heading off to do a course, it’s that, oh, well, they’re still learning. So it, it’s okay here for me to want to question and grow my skills and grow that knowledge base. And I think I, I think I, I think it’s stupid at any age to assume that, you know, more or less, you know, learning, as I said, learning that, that reverse mentoring and learning so much from my apprentices from almost, I think, you know, one of the things I really learned from the apprentices is not to be so bothered about that perception of what other people think of me. And I think that sometimes a lot of companies can get so caught up in, we need to develop our leaders, because if we develop our leaders, that will fix everything. And they forget that actually the leadership makes up a small amount of the company. And whilst it’s really important for your employees to have those leaders that are guiding them in the right way, we also need to listen to the vast majority of our employees that are at all different levels at all different generations.

Debbie Hayler [00:45:06]:
You know, how do they learn? What do they want to be getting out of their, their roles? And it’s quite scary. I’m seeing quite a lot now when you’re looking over social media is that new generation don’t want to go into those leadership roles. They don’t want to be a manager. And it’s that question of why, what are they seeing that now has kind of stopped that and they just want to kind of go in and do a job where maybe they’re just technically the expert in that job but don’t have to. They don’t want that extra management level of responsibility anymore. So it’s always quite interesting seeing the two and spanning across the different levels. I think there is true power in that reverse mentoring. I think a lot of people will go, well, we need to put mentoring programme on.

Debbie Hayler [00:45:58]:
And it’s always, well, our more junior people in the company need to be mentored by our leadership. But actually if you reversed that, what could they learn in terms of just how do they talk to. It could be how they just talk to different generations or could they learn a mannerism that could actually help them a little bit more as well.

Melody Moore [00:46:21]:
I’m just going to pause a second because my dog needs to get out the room. Hold on a sec.

Debbie Hayler [00:46:24]:
That’s okay.

Melody Moore [00:46:26]:
Growling at THE DOOR she’s had enough.

Debbie Hayler [00:46:39]:
I can’t listen to this anymore.

Melody Moore [00:46:42]:
She can’t hear because she’s. I’ve got my headphones on on so she’s not listening. Brilliant. Right, let’s move on to your last thing that you can talk about, which is an award that you won. Tell me about that, why it was so important to you.

Debbie Hayler [00:47:01]:
Yes. So end of last year, I want to say I won my first ever award. It was the silver award for best implementation of a new learning system. I think it was one of those kind of surreal moments of every company. I always make this joke. Every company I’ve been in, I always seem to end up putting a new learning platform in place. It’s one of those things that follows me along with gdpr. I always seem to manage to get myself involved in that side of things as well.

Debbie Hayler [00:47:38]:
But learning systems are of always been one of those things that by all means it’s not the part of my job that really drives me and gets me out of bed. But I love the outcome and what you can do with it and shape with different systems and putting them in. And when I joined the company that I’m at now, we, they didn’t have a platform. They had a very basic. It just pushed out compliance. And so we were looking at what we could put in. And I remember very early saying to them did they want something from a platform that would solve what they needed now or did they want something that would grow with them? And so we settled on LXP platform and.

Melody Moore [00:48:30]:
The.

Debbie Hayler [00:48:30]:
The award kind of almost. It kind of came out of nowhere. Really, it was one of those where my idea, I’m very lucky in this role. The CEO is all for people’s development. And I’ve never heard a CEO get up in front of their company and say that we want to develop you to the best you can be, even if that means we lose you because we don’t have the role available for you here. We don’t want to stunt that. And I think that’s really powerful. And I remember saying I’d come into this role again on a maternity cover, and I remember saying that they’ve got the buy in there already.

Debbie Hayler [00:49:09]:
They’ve almost done the hard part. Because normally when you go into companies to do L and D, it’s really trying to get that buy in from the leadership or employees to determine how important that was. And already having that at that leadership level. And my manager, Nikki, in my role at the moment, again, was hugely on that development side. And it’s another person. It was kind of like, I trust you, now go and make it happen. And it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t something they were considering. And we kind of just evaluated what we wanted to do and we’re putting this platform in.

Debbie Hayler [00:49:44]:
And we. We’d done the implementation side and it was Nikki that kind of came to me and went, let’s submit it for an award. And I kind of just. I remember sort of just sort of laughing it off as they thought, oh, wait, you know, it’s just putting another system in. It’s something I’d done many times. I don’t. I don’t know whether we’d get anything from that. But I wrote the submission and talked all around it and really drove back to.

Debbie Hayler [00:50:14]:
I think the reason that we were able to get Silver really came all the way back to the engagement side of things. And I think a lot of that and the reason that it’s been quite a defining moment is because I think it captured everything that had happened in my career that brought me to where I am now. That means the most to me. So it’s. How could you get the potential out of people that maybe don’t have that confidence there or know that they’ve got that potential? And it was looking at something completely different. It allowed us to look at it from a different angle. So we’ve moved into a skills approach, skills first approach in the company. So it’s not about your experience, it’s not about your qualifications you have, it’s about the skills you have and how confident you feel in those skills.

Debbie Hayler [00:51:09]:
And then Us being able to direct the learning into that. I’m actually talking at the Learning Tech Awards in April at the end, a lot more around what was involved in this, this implementation side of things and, and why it ended up being award winning. But to be able to. I remember sitting, we were sitting with the providers of the platform. How now is the providers the platform we use. And we were sitting with them at the awards. It’s quite, it was quite interesting doing the panelling because you, you go online on. It was on a zoom chat and it was just a panel of three and we didn’t even finish our presentation and me and Nikki got off after and we both just went, that’s not, we’re not going to get anything from it.

Debbie Hayler [00:51:58]:
Like, you know, we’ve been nominated. Let’s just, let’s just take that, that we got, you know, we got to the point of they actually wanted to panel us and I, we went along to the awards and I remember sitting there with my colleagues and the team at how now and they’re going, it was the biggest category. All the others had about five. And I’m sitting there and I’m like, why is my name not come up? And it’s going through, it’s going through because, like a category of about nine people and ours was named. The last one that was in that category, I was like, okay, I haven’t just, I haven’t just imagined that. I was like, okay, we, we did actually get through to this stage. I haven’t just completely imagined that side of things. And I was like, oh, okay, we’re up there.

Debbie Hayler [00:52:38]:
And I remember my friend, she took a picture of the fact that we were up there. She was like, well, you know, if we don’t win, at least you’ve got your name on the big screen. That we’ve actually kind of got that far to be nominated. And they’re going through and I hear them kind of say the bronze in the category. There’s the gold, silver, bronze. I hear them say the bronze. And I was like, nah, no, we definitely haven’t got it then because we’re not going to get silver or gold. And I remember them saying silver, saying our name.

Debbie Hayler [00:53:10]:
And I just looked at someone, I went, what? Just, I just completely went, huh? Like what? To the point where I at that point had no clue who had got gold because I was in absolute disbelief that we had managed to get silver. And I remember just after the shock had kind of settled in, I just remember, like crying of like this for me meant so much that it was kind of like actually I think for the first time I’d gone, I actually am quite good at this. I, I am an expert. Like I, I think all of that imposter syndrome in that moment started to really disappear and I was like, I now, I can now call myself a leader in the L and D space and I can actually say I’m pretty amazing at this and it’s something that I can’t. You know, I think I’ve always listened to podcasts, gone to conferences, heard speakers, talk about things and I was like, oh, I’m never, never going to be the one inspiring people. And actually just, you know. Yes, you know, would I have loved to have got gold? Yes, I. But actually to be able to get silver, we were only I think four months after launching, so we had, it hadn’t been implemented that long, we didn’t have a lot of ROI on it.

Debbie Hayler [00:54:42]:
So to be able to actually get silver because of the fact that we’d put our employees and what they wanted first for all of that and we’d included them as part of the process. And it, I just went, everything that I’ve tried to achieve, you know, people that maybe sometimes get overlooked, whether it’s companies are focusing on leadership so employees get overlooked. Someone hasn’t got that degree so they’re getting overlooked. Like what I’d been able to put in, in that moment is going to help those people. And yeah, it was quite a surreal. I still, my boss made a joke because it took a while for the trophy to make it to work and she kept saying we’re never going to see it. Are we forgetting it? Honestly I just keep forgetting it. But it, yeah, I think it was it still for me is one of those kind of pinch me moments of I’m like, I’ve actually done that and it started to kind of click into place for me from there.

Debbie Hayler [00:55:47]:
I think that’s the part where I went, I’ve actually become what I was trying to be. So yeah, it’s, yeah, it was definitely, definitely a chain.

Melody Moore [00:55:59]:
Amazing, amazing. And speaking of inspiring people. So my next question’s about what’s next and more inspiring people. Sounds like it’s on the agenda.

Debbie Hayler [00:56:11]:
Yeah. So I think having now come to that kind of self realisation of my own skills, I want to definitely get into that space of putting myself out my comfort zone. I think for a while I’ve wanted to be more of that thought leader. I’ve always. That’s kind of, I think where I’ve wanted to get to and be able to really share what I’m doing, my thought process around it. So it’s putting myself out my comfort zone. Coming on here was the first step of that. I think there’s a lot, lot that I’ve shared on here that I maybe haven’t always been quite.

Debbie Hayler [00:56:52]:
I’m quite a private person and so I don’t always maybe touch base on my bullying unless it’s. I know it’s going to help someone or in that front. But I think now that I’ve kind of come to that space where I don’t feel like I’m an imposter anymore, that I really want to start talking on podcast more. I am very lucky that I’m going to be speaking at the Learning Tech conference in April. So that is going to be my first time speaking in a conference. So it’s definitely out of my comfort zone, but it is something I’m very excited to do. I really want to talk to people in the space around the strength of those skills and the power that actually skills and moving into that skilled focus space can bring. Me and one of my colleagues who works on the HR side are looking at actually starting our own podcast where it kind of talks about more of the kind of.

Debbie Hayler [00:57:57]:
It’s called. It’s going to be called. That’s not in the handbook. And so it’s looking at that less. Looking at it from a different lens, I guess you’d say, of that kind of. How can you. I’d almost say ticking the boxes of what I’ve talked about in this, this podcast of if you don’t tickle those traditional boxes of what someone’s looking for, what does that mean for you in your career and how can you actually still get to where you want to? So, yeah, for me, I think what’s next is putting my voice out there, stepping outside my comfort zone again. I think now that I’m.

Debbie Hayler [00:58:33]:
I’ve realised I’ve reached where I wanted to get to, it’s definitely time to stretch myself again. I don’t think I could be an L and D leader if I wasn’t constantly stretching myself. So it’s getting out my comfort zone, speaking to more people about what I’m passionate about, why I, you know, do what I do. I am actually going to be starting a new role at the end of April as well, where I’m going to be be building an L and D function from scratch, which is very exciting to be given a blank sheet of paper and really help evolve a company to where they want to get to. It’s very exciting as well. So a lot of new things coming and yeah, hopefully this, this won’t be the last podcast I do and the last time you’ve heard of me.

Melody Moore [00:59:24]:
April sounds like a big month for you then.

Debbie Hayler [00:59:27]:
Yes. Yeah. Got a lot, lot to do in that month. But yeah, no exciting. Nerve wracking, but exciting.

Melody Moore [00:59:39]:
And then looking back, what advice would you give to your younger self?

Debbie Hayler [00:59:47]:
This. It’s always an interesting one. Again, when I think about kind of this, I don’t live on regretting things. I think there’s always a lesson in everything. I think for my younger self, I am always a perfectionist. I always have been. I always say I’ve got borderline OCD sometimes. If, if you looked in my kitchen cupboards, you probably agree.

Debbie Hayler [01:00:12]:
But I think one of my biggest lessons I’ve learned through this year is progression, not perfection. And the things don’t have to be perfect to where you want to be to actually make a difference. That actually there is a lot of value from gaining that feedback, working with, you know, your customers, your stakeholders on things, and to be particularly in L and D, to be able to build that out, that us as L and D professionals don’t know everything, we don’t have all the answers. So actually we can’t make things perfect without that network around us, without working with our customers. And I think that is probably something. If I could go back and say to my younger self, what would I do differently? Is to enjoy the process more and not get so hung up on perfection and just go with the progression of things instead.

Melody Moore [01:01:14]:
What would you say to the people who bullied you in school?

Debbie Hayler [01:01:20]:
Oh, I think. Oh, gosh, I think that’s a really hard one. I think that is, again, because I don’t regret things. There’s been a lot of times of me processing that. So there’s. I don’t think for me, I look back at that now and there’s. There’s not. I think it helped shaped me.

Debbie Hayler [01:01:47]:
I think it did make me stronger and more empathetic to people. So I probably. It sounds probably a weird thing to say. I probably wouldn’t change it because it’s who I am now. And for me it wasn’t. You know, I think a lot of the time when people think of bullying, they think of either physical or that. You have to be able to say something really concrete. So I think just not so much saying to those that bullied me, but sometimes just really think about how you’re saying Something to someone because how they interpret it could be very different and you don’t know what people are going through.

Debbie Hayler [01:02:33]:
So it’s kind of having that consideration around that that is. Is probably where I’m kind of at with that. I think I’ve. I’ve. I think I. I don’t know whether I’ve probably fully healed from that time, if I’m going to be completely honest, but I think I’ve let go of it. I think I’ve moved on from it and learned that actually I think I’ve made it into a superpower as opposed to dwelling on it.

Melody Moore [01:03:02]:
Yeah, Love that. Books. Any books that you would recommend?

Debbie Hayler [01:03:08]:
I mean, I’m. I’m looking at it right now. My. My Amy Cuddy. I mean, it’s my signed copy book presence. It. I’m gonna keep talking about her. I think for me, presence.

Debbie Hayler [01:03:21]:
I’m not a huge book person. I’ve only recently got back into reading. But because that changed my life so much and there’s so much more detail in her book book than there is on her TED Talks, I’d highly recommend that There’s. There are a few podcasts that I’ve listened to recently that I definitely want to see if they’ve got any books. As I said, I’m trying. I’m trying to get myself into reading. I think it’s important to switch off from those things. So I definitely find that reading helps you disconnect from digital technology that is around us all the time today.

Debbie Hayler [01:03:59]:
But, yeah, it’s got to be presence. It’s got to be Amy Cuddy.

Melody Moore [01:04:04]:
And what title would you give to your story?

Debbie Hayler [01:04:09]:
I think. I think it has to derive from. I. I still believe that the Amy Cuddy TED Talk played a huge part. So her fake it till you become it is definitely part of it. I think I faked it. I became it. And I think now I’m heading into my chapter of I’m starting to own it.

Melody Moore [01:04:32]:
Love that. Brilliant. Thank you so much. I’m so honoured that I am your first podcast.

Debbie Hayler [01:04:41]:
Thank you for having me on here, honestly.

Melody Moore [01:04:44]:
You’re very welcome.

Debbie Hayler [01:04:45]:
It has been amazing talking to you. And even there, this has completely, I think, opened up my eyes to just how much I want to start sharing more with people out there. So thank you very much.

Melody Moore [01:04:57]:
You’re very welcome. This podcast is brought to you by Liberare Consulting. If you enjoyed today’s show, why not click on the subscribe button? So you are among the first to hear about new episodes and we would love for you to do us a favour and click on the Share button and share this episode with one of your friends.