Perry Timms Podcast Transcript

Melody Moore [00:00:01]:
Welcome to the Secret Resume podcast, hosted by me, Melody Moore. In this podcast, we explore the people.

Not specified [00:00:08]:
Places and experiences that have shaped my.

Melody Moore [00:00:11]:
Guests, those which have influenced who they are as people and where they are in their work life today, or as.

Not specified [00:00:17]:
I like to call it, their secret resume.

Melody Moore [00:00:21]:
Before we dive in, I want to tell you about something that I’m really excited about, about which is our being free membership. We’re developing an online community which is designed for people who are interested in personal growth. If you’re navigating career transitions, maybe feeling stuck or burnt out, or simply seeking more meaning in your life, then this is for you. Membership gives you access to a range of resources, a supportive community and monthly group coaching calls. It will allow you to explore what free freedom means to you on your own terms. Head to www.liberareconsulting.co.uk being free to join the Waitlist.

Not specified [00:01:04]:
My guest today is Perry Tims. Perry, I’m thrilled that you’re here today in your beautiful red shirt. So could you start off by introducing yourself to us, please?

Perry Timms [00:01:16]:
Of course I can. Thank you, Melody, for a lovely warm welcome. Yes. Don’t normally wear red, but yeah, a bit of vibrancy doesn’t hurt, I suppose. Yes, thank you. I’ll start with three numbers actually, that kind of frame me, 39, I worked it out, which is years in the workplace. So I joined the workplace as an 18 year old and you can work out by that what birthday I’m headed towards. The second number is 21.

Perry Timms [00:01:42]:
That’s the amount of years I’ve been in the HR or people professions. So I spent good amount of time of my working life in that space. And then I’ll give you 13, which is the number for the years that I’ve been operating under the people and transformational HR banner, something I founded in 2012 and was really keen to see how I could make a mark in the world in a profession I’d come to really, really welcome being part of. And I’ve been enjoying myself ever since. So that’s kind of my story. I’m from Northamptonshire, so right in the centre of England. And yeah, I’ve been passionately fascinated by people’s systems of work and I’ll talk more about that as we go through.

Not specified [00:02:25]:
Fabulous, thank you. I love that. Very simple. 39, 21 and 13. I was now trying to. I was sat there trying to work out how long I’ve been in the workplace, but not quite as long, but quite a long time. So let’s take you right back to the beginning of your story in the workplace, which is when you were not in HR but you were a consumer of HR or a customer or a client, I suppose. Tell us a bit about that.

Perry Timms [00:02:56]:
Yeah, so joining the civil service in 1985 as somebody who left school after sixth form, didn’t go to university, was something where I was a consumer of HR without knowing it. So HR obviously conducted the recruitment kind of techniques and administration for me, even applying for the job in the first place and getting to sit before three people and tell them all about myself. And then obviously they kind of liked what they heard because they offered me the role. And then of course I got things like contract and pension and I got paid and so on. But I probably became more aware of it when things like learning and development came into the mix where people would say, oh, there’s this training course, you can go, I oh, great, how does that work then? And so at the time it was the personnel teams, so that’s what it was called. And so I would find myself magically with some call up papers to go to a venue in Birmingham to sit in a room with other people from different parts of the country working for the same civil service department, which was injustice, and learn something in a kind of course environment, and then go back to my office day after being able to be a bit more confident and competent doing that. So that was probably my first feel of being a consumer of hr. All the other stuff happened and I just kind of took it that that’s what happens when you join any organisation.

Perry Timms [00:04:15]:
But I think as I got into team leading, that’s where it really, really started to come into effect. So I was offered a sort of temporary sort of stint as a team leader. And then I realised that you have duty of care conduct, you have to do performance feedback for people, writing things about them, distributing work, dealing with abstinence. I think it really hit me when things like people failed to turn up and didn’t let you know. And then it’s like, what do I do now? And it’s, you know, a personnel team would then say, right, you’ve got to record this. And then when they come back, you have to have an interview and you have to note it, work out what. And all of a sudden, wow. And that kind of got me into the whole sense that there’s employment law around this, there are practises, there are things you have to do to make sure you’re fair but compliant.

Perry Timms [00:05:02]:
Because I then had to get involved in things like hiring decisions myself and even Getting involved in people who weren’t performing well and what you do with that. So that suddenly gave me the sense, wow, there are these people who do all these things when it gets complex and challenging and difficult and different and also still the good side. Where I found people with potential, I’m like, what can I do to help them develop? And that’s where, again, accessing learning, development, getting them prepared for things like promotion, interviews and so on. And I was trained as a recruitment interviewer so I could do all the techniques of questioning. And I suddenly realised how hard it was being on that side of the table to ask questions about somebody’s capability and experience and likelihood to succeed in a role. I had such respect for that kind of position because I thought, wow, this stuff is really complex. And I then found out that it was linked to not just standards, but also ethics, and it was linked to science, even how people behave and what you look for in testing evidence of a person’s ability to do a role. And so that was intriguing.

Perry Timms [00:06:06]:
And I remember a really distinct point in that when the organisation I was in introduced the role that was called the Health Awareness Officer, what it was was they were looking at sick absence and they were saying that actually, what we’re probably needing to do is explore more about what’s going on with absence and how we can help people and understand more about why they’re off, particularly long term. I think by then a more compassionate feel was starting to come in as employers for people who had things like early onset of mental health conditions, stress, anxiety and so on, and people who had things like diabetes, people who had had an accident and therefore had a bit of a temporary adjustment needed in the workplace and so on. So I got very close to HR at that time, because it was called HR by then, and I got some training about what to do when I’m conducting those kinds of conversations with people. All of a sudden, again, I was like, wow, this is really interesting because this really bridges people’s lives and their working Personas. So I would have people talk about, you know, a troubled home and how actually that was impacted on their work. And it’s almost like, what, what, what do I do now about that? You know? So HR came into a really different sort of lens for me because they were saying, well, actually, you could refer them to this kind of counselling and we can pick up this kind of flexible working arrangement. And it’s almost like, wow, this is something I didn’t know was even a thing that you could help people navigate complex social issues as much as performance development, so on. So, yeah, that, that was me as a consumer.

Perry Timms [00:07:47]:
So I also remember one really exciting thing where in those training courses that I used to go on, I got to go on one as a new manager and then after a while the people who ran the courses said, could you come and help us with some role playing? I’m like, oh, yeah, that’ll be quite interesting. Tell me more. So they wanted me to be a kind of disruptive employee. These new managers had to interview me about why I was disruptive and my behaviour was off kilter and all this kind of stuff. So I kind of had a bit of acting role there, I suppose, but it suddenly got me thinking how valuable those almost like rehearsals of real life scenarios could be. So. So that got me really interested in learning and development and that that was my entry point into the HR profession, from being a consumer to being. Being a professional within it.

Perry Timms [00:08:36]:
So, yeah, that’s kind of the story. It was a gradual understanding and appreciation of what HR does as a consumer and then actually a desire to kind of go, actually, I want, I want to be part of that.

Not specified [00:08:48]:
So I’ve so many questions come to my head already, I’m going to save one for later. But one of them is, why do you think they chose you to be the disruptive employee role player?

Perry Timms [00:09:01]:
Um, I. I guess when I got involved in being a delegate on a training course and these sorts of things happened, I think the people who were the facilitators could see that I could step out of being me and I could assume some kind of conditions. So I think they felt comfortable that I could be dropped in to that sort of environment with a bit of briefing and so on. So there was a definite sense that they saw that in me and my ability to kind of hold that different Persona, I suppose, but. But equally, I was just really interested in learning. So I got very close to the learning team to make the most out of what they offered from a Birmingham office to the team I had in Northampton and about what else I could do and what I could strengthen and so on. So I’d already demonstrated an interest in it. So I think they thought, well, he’s keen and actually he’s reasonably capable in this kind of situation.

Perry Timms [00:09:50]:
So I think it was a response to that. And I became not just this health awareness officer, but I also kind of had this pivotal linkage as a kind of learning kind of front end, I suppose, for the organisation I was in. There was a couple hundred people worked in the office so we had quite a demanding stack of things we wanted and so it was all working in harmony with how we can better deliver things more bespoke and in our premises and not having to send people on expensive train journeys, et cetera. So I think I sort of developed a bit more of what I would call an active customer role.

Not specified [00:10:22]:
There’s then what made you choose the Civil Service in the first place?

Perry Timms [00:10:27]:
Interesting question because in Northampton at the time Barclay Card had a huge headquarter building and lots of people I knew who were sort of more oriented towards office work rather than anything else kind of looked at that as the premium kind of role. It was either Barclaycard or what’s now Nationwide. Both had big offices. I did my work experience at Nationwide, so I applied to them and I applied to Barker Card and I did actually get offered a job at barticart at the same time as I got offered the Civil Service role. And the determinant actually was when I sort of spoke to my parents about it and said I’ve got these two offers and they said, well, which one are you more interested in? I was like, I’ve always been intrigued by how society can protect people even then. And I thought so Barclaycard doesn’t really do that, it’s consumer, but the Civil Service does. And my mum said, yeah, that sounds sensible. And they have a pension.

Perry Timms [00:11:16]:
I’m like, Mum, I’m 18, why am.

Not specified [00:11:17]:
I bothered about that?

Perry Timms [00:11:19]:
She said, no, no, it’s a good thing to have. I’m like, okay. And little do I now know that actually it was terrific pension. What I found in it though, and what kept me there, I think even when other people I knew moved on was that it was the Civil Service was really good at looking after you, particularly developmentally. I got on loads of projects. I mean I even got to travel around the world speaking at events because of the work I was doing, injustice and technology and some people kind of went, wow, I didn’t expect that from the Civil Service. And I was like, no, nor did I. But it kept giving to me and it was only when I hit, I guess, a sort of a realisation in my career that that potentially I should try something else for diversity sense.

Perry Timms [00:12:00]:
And somebody offered me something in the non profit area that still felt very purpose protections that I did feel confident enough to move on. But I always say to people, the Civil Service gave me so much, helped me understand who am I and what I hear for in a way that I didn’t go looking for. But it, it was a very Generous employer. So the, the initial thing was the protection side and interest in the law and then the pension bit my mum mentioned. But because it was so generous, that’s what kept me there. And I look fondly on it now and think there are lots of things that I got access to, but I don’t think I’d have got if I went to Barker. Card. Yes.

Not specified [00:12:39]:
Yeah, it’s interesting and I’ve done a lot of work with the Civil service and I think, you know, it is definitely one of the things I’ve observed is the, the development that people are offered compared to lots of other organisations is, is huge. Yeah.

Perry Timms [00:12:55]:
And. And this is 1980s. Right. Back end of 1980s, I worked flexible working time now then I could come in at 8 if I wanted to work my hours and leave at 4:30. And there were other people in money making private enterprise who were fixed on 9 to 5 and I could choose top end of the day or day and so on. And it was almost like, wow. I mean, that was well ahead of the game. Right.

Perry Timms [00:13:17]:
So, yeah, but I think, you know, the generosity of it is also in the sense that you are doing something for society more than just stacking up profit. So, yes, there were challenging times when budgets were curtain, funding was tight, but you sort of recognise you’re spending public money, so you sort of understood that.

Not specified [00:13:35]:
Yeah.

Perry Timms [00:13:35]:
And it did feel like you were part of something and it was nice that, you know, we opened a new court building and the Lord Chancellor came to open it and I got to meet him, I got a picture with him and stuff. It’s like, that’s a, that’s a big name, that’s a big minister in government and here he is looking at the kind of work I do. So even those kind of things made me feel part of something that had heritage, that had a real strong sense of social order and performance and support for people. So, yeah, it gives you a lot.

Not specified [00:14:01]:
Yeah, absolutely. So you became, I guess, increasingly involved in hr.

Perry Timms [00:14:07]:
Yeah.

Not specified [00:14:08]:
And then at what point did you decide to make the switch to. Is it poacher become gamekeeper?

Perry Timms [00:14:15]:
Kind of is, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I, I went on another management course. By this time I was working on sort of strategic tech projects and I’m in. I loved it because it was really adventurous in many respects for the civil service. And so I remember going on a course and there was a kind of almost like opening speech from the HR director at the time and I just felt like she was talking to me about career aspirations and what it meant to be Driving strategic things forward. So I remember having a chat with her later in the day and said, look, I’m really interested in the work you do. I said, but more your perspective.

Perry Timms [00:14:49]:
Perspective on leadership. I said, do you ever take anybody on to do mentoring? She said, well, yeah, I do. She said, but, you know, I’ve been careful about it because a few people have sort of been quite manipulative with that. I said, oh, yeah, I understand that. She said, but tell me more. And I sort of said, look, I’m just interested in how I can be a better leader and what I can learn. So she said, yeah, let’s do it. So we started mentoring, and she became my mentor.

Perry Timms [00:15:13]:
And at the time, I was working on tech projects and it got to a point where funding was then cut. And I was kind of thinking, I’m not out of a job, but I can’t see the. The plus for this in me anymore. So I brought that into a mentoring session. And she said, okay, well, what do you want to do? I said, well, maybe it’s time to think about something different. She said, well, where do you get excited and what lights you up in your work? And a lot of the things I talked about were interacting with people, helping them learn. She said, sounds like learning tournament. I’m like, yeah.

Perry Timms [00:15:41]:
Anyway, there was a post in her team, so I applied for it and got it. So I don’t think I would have thought about it necessarily, but she made it very explicit to me that what I was describing felt like that kind of career option. Then, lo and behold, a few weeks later, that post came up. I thought, oh, I’ll give that a go. And I got it, and I’ve never looked back since. So I always pin my sort of transition into HR based on the fact that I had that conversation about my choice. And it just so happened that I was being mentored by an HR director. And it then happened that an L and D post came up.

Perry Timms [00:16:15]:
And it’s almost like, I wonder whether the universe said, maybe that’s what you should do. So I went with it. And she and I kept in touch for a long time afterwards. And I. I kind of put her up there as one of those people who’s had such an influence over my choices that I’m thankful for the moment she agreed to do that. I’m thankful for all the support she provided, even when I went out as an independent practitioner, had nothing to do with her work and career. But. But yeah, that got me really convinced that that was my pathway now stepping into that sometimes these things be careful what you wish for.

Perry Timms [00:16:49]:
However. Oh, it just opened up so many things to me because I realised that HR isn’t about people. I mean, it is, but it’s more about people in a system and what that system’s all about. So I got to learn about the psychology of performance and learning and all these things that I suddenly thought, wow, this is what stimulates me. So, yeah, I think it was the fact that going into an HR role is a really good excuse, almost slash mandatory, learn as much as you can and just keep learning. And it felt like the right place for me to do that and I’ve never looked back since.

Not specified [00:17:28]:
Do you think having been on the other side helped in terms of. Of being an HR practitioner?

Perry Timms [00:17:33]:
Hugely. So some examples spring to mind. Right. So I’m out there in amongst court staff doing, doing day to day work, different performance management system coming in about how we rate performance and how we participate in assessing how well we’re doing and what we can do about that. And I had lots of people going, oh, it’s just talk. I just want to do my thing. And because I’d been a team leader, I was like, but that’s not how I’ve seen it and that’s not how I’ve understood it as somebody like you. And.

Perry Timms [00:18:05]:
And I had a probably stronger case to make because I’d been on their side and I could then make the connection between the system and their everyday lives. And I remember just one conversation where somebody said, I do this and I do this and I do this and I do this and it’s like, that’s great. I said, well, who. Who’s ever recognised that you’ve done that went, nobody. And I’m like, so do you think if we had a more robust system where you had an opportunity to bring that to your manager’s attention and your colleague’s attention, that would be good for you? Yes. She said, I’d love that. I’m like, well, that’s what I’m proposing for you today. And all of a sudden you could see her connect to something going, oh, I hadn’t drawn that connection.

Perry Timms [00:18:44]:
I wouldn’t have been able to make that connection if I wasn’t somebody who’d been on the other side. And I know a lot of people in HR who say, I didn’t start out in HR and they almost want to apologise for it. And I’m like, no, no, no, don’t. Because it feels like what you’ve done is got the experience of the consumer of HR and then come in and be the provider. And I think there’s something really strong in that. So I still find myself now being able to validate HR practise by saying, I’ve led teams, I’ve run strategies, I’ve done recruitment, I get what you’re up against, I know what’s going on here and I can even use it a little bit to agitate where HR is a little bit flat, a little bit unspectacular and kind of go, so if I was your consumer, I wouldn’t want that, and here’s why. And it adds a bit of cred. And I never mean it to prod people in the ribs, but just go, you know, the service levels of HR are always something.

Perry Timms [00:19:33]:
I’m thinking, what else can we do? What ad can we create? What value can we bring? And it helps me do that because I’ve done the other bit of it, the other side of it.

Not specified [00:19:42]:
It’s interesting, when I joined hey Group, which of course is. Was HR consulting, they didn’t recruit graduates typically, unlike other consultancies, they recruited people who had some leadership and management experience. That was their thing. You know, pretty much everybody had had at least five years out there in the trenches. And I think it gives exactly, as you say, a different perspective because you’ve learned what it’s like to do the doing before you go around advising people. And you see in some large consultancies, people will go straight from university into becoming a consultant and then they don’t have any on the ground experience.

Perry Timms [00:20:27]:
And I’ve caught myself, and I mean it, saying to people who are studying for HR and want to just jump straight into it, that, you know, now I know what I know, I probably would have done the same thing as them because it’s got so much allure. But I can then also add that little. But don’t forget what you’re there for, so get out of that as much as you can and be alongside team leaders and be alongside hiring managers and be working with frontline people. Because the worst thing you could be is an almost like distance bureaucrat. The best thing you can be is an immersive, partnering, advisory and really listening kind of function. But I don’t think I’d say that if I just jump straight into it, because you wouldn’t know any different. But. But I do admire people who choose it very early age because it’s got so many fascinating features to it that I sort of think all those years I didn’t do it I could, I could have, you know, strengthened what I do in there.

Perry Timms [00:21:23]:
But it’s like now there’s a reason that I took the path I did and I’m very happy that I found it within that 39 years and I’ve been able to do 21 of them in it. I can’t separate myself really from me as a person and me as a practitioner and a professional because it’s kind of, it’s made me who I am and I found out who I am through it and who I am infiltrates and permeates through everything I do inside.

Not specified [00:21:48]:
And so how long were you in sort of an in house HR role then?

Perry Timms [00:21:55]:
From 2003 to 2012 when I left. So I did nine, almost 10 years. And, and, and some of that was still in the civil service. So I did that for about three, three and a half years. And then I did the rest out in the nonprofit area. And it was really, I suppose developmental for me was in the nonprofit area. I had a richer playground. I could be more experimental.

Perry Timms [00:22:18]:
I had my hands on budgets, agendas, linkages to strategy, people’s career paths and so on. And I could be much more in control of what I felt was the right thing to do in the civil service. I was very much the recipient and what, what, what was done for the whole thing. So I had to kind of do the bidding, if you want to call it that. So I loved that it stretched my sense of what I could do differently, but in the spirit of talent management engagement and so on. And, and I, I, I guess I wanted to prove to myself that I wasn’t just a by the book type of person, that I could almost create my own thing within it. And I would say that was really important for me to have my own sense of what it is all about from the perspectives I had. Because by the time I sort of got to do that, I’d already discovered there were alternative, different, new advanced, progressive ways to do work, lead, learn, perform.

Perry Timms [00:23:17]:
And it’s almost like, wow, I’ve seen this kind of civil service view of the world and now I’ve seen this wider view, but actually it’s even wider. And I really wanted to stretch my parameters and wanted to stretch what work was for people because I think it can get a bit frustrating if you’re only painting by numbers rather than very freehand. And I wanted to do much more of that. So it gave me a fantastic, almost blank canvas to do that. And during my course in the non profit area, similar constraints you purpose led so you can’t be wasteful. You have the heart of, you know, something that’s really important to humans, but you want to be efficient about it and not mechanical, but equally not just laissez faire and, you know, kind of indulgent. So I found some lovely balance there, that the civil service was very much drumbeat and this was a little bit more real and articulated in a different way. And of course, when you then go free lance like I did then, then it’s a whole different jazz thing.

Perry Timms [00:24:17]:
Right. Just do exactly what you feel is right. But. But it was almost like I had three levels of maturity there. Playbook expansion and then like, whatever, going wild. Yeah.

Not specified [00:24:31]:
I was just gonna say, talk to me about, you know, when I think of you, I always think of your, you know, you’ve got ideas and you can talk about, you know, and we’ll come to this in terms of, you know, what trends and what have you, but in terms of how you got there, in terms of your own knowledge and your broadening, because that’s what it sounds like you’re describing, is that you’re, you know, you have explored things that maybe other people wouldn’t traditionally have thought of being aligned to hr.

Perry Timms [00:25:00]:
Yeah, and. And I think that initially there was nothing more than just my own curiosity about things, but I’ve now come to realise that that had to be attached to a real sense of something I wanted to be and know more about. So it wasn’t just, I’m curious, let’s just play around with stuff. It’s like, well, hang on, because I’m curious. I found this, and let me just give you an example. Like, different forms of leading and managing, that particularly are less hierarchical. Now, that wasn’t because I felt oppressed in the civil service, but when I saw different forms of much more flat structure, structures and participation, I was like, that’s when I was at my best and it actually exists as a system. I felt I did it in the civil service almost accidentally because you just had to, but systematically.

Perry Timms [00:25:47]:
Sometimes you can put this in, where people can step up and own things, be accountable and direct and be more autonomous. And I’m like, what? That really talked to me. So I dove into that and found a lot of science, a lot of groundbreaking companies, and it’s like, why isn’t that a feature within hr? And it is just playbook? Because that’s much richer, that’s much more about people’s discovery of who they are, not just, do I fit this job description or the next one up. So that that curiosity, I think, had to almost be attached to a real sense of stimulus in me. So that’s where I went with it. And I almost then began to revel in it being distant and departed from tradition to the point that I’ve sort of described myself as anti hierarchical, pro contrary things like that. Because it’s almost like I don’t want to be that straight back practitioner. I want to bring the bold and even the wild in and prove that some of this can stretch the parameters that meet more people on their terms to get the same, if not better outcomes for both the company society, shareholders, stakeholders, individuals, whatever.

Perry Timms [00:26:58]:
Because I felt the balances were a bit skewed in terms of everything was top down. As long as the top people were pleased, the bottom people did that bid in. And I’m almost like at the bottom people are closer to the customer and the end result and they often see the frustrations of things and they want to change it, but. But they stop them doing it. So how do you change that? Well, you equalise and you bring more voice and influence and so on in there. So I just got onto those kinds of agendas. So there was never any flippancy and I just want to be different for the sake of it. It was something where I found myself wanting to be different for the impact of it.

Not specified [00:27:38]:
Is there, would you say a rebellious, you know, is that a rebellious side.

Perry Timms [00:27:44]:
To you being a civil servant? You. You think that’s a complete oxymoron? However, yes, because even like when I ran a team, I wouldn’t want to do things how other team leaders did them. I wanted to know what was good for the team. I wanted to know people individually. I would say to people, look, feedback’s not one way things. I want you to tell me how I’m doing as leading you. Not because I want to be weak and flimsy and shaped by, you know, dominant personalities in the team, but we’re in this together, aren’t we? And so that was kind of counterintuitive to a lot of people, but it seemed to work for me, so I thought so. So I got to realise that that rebellion doesn’t have to change shape, take the shape of destruction.

Perry Timms [00:28:31]:
It can actually be almost like a little hack within that you can make that still gets you the same outcome, but just in a different way. And if nobody stops you from doing it, why not? Do you know what I mean? So it is almost like, you know, somebody once said to me, proceed until apprehended.

Not specified [00:28:49]:
It’s like kind of me. What is it about? Seek forgiveness, don’t ask permission.

Perry Timms [00:28:58]:
That’s it. So I think that almost became something I was looking out to do. So I was never wanting to be subservient, far from it. I, I could only do a little bit of rebellion if I could point to the reason it was in existence, align the reason we were there in the first place. So I was very collegiate and aligned, but I just didn’t want to get there how other people got there. I wanted to be more squiggly than straight or more experimental than predictable because that kind of brought me to life and I saw what it did to other people as well. They’re like, oh, this is a little experiment. I, I, I, I’ve, I’ve got something going on in me now.

Perry Timms [00:29:35]:
So I thought actually it’s a useful stimulator for people and actually gets you, you a little bit closer to, like, who they really are, rather than just this job description. So, yeah, so it had that at the heart of it. So bizarrely, yeah, I would say rebel, but, but kind of Rebel with a call.

Not specified [00:29:52]:
That’s exactly what came into my head. I think we just found the title for your.

Perry Timms [00:29:59]:
I’m happy with that. I’m happy with that.

Not specified [00:30:01]:
That’s so funny. We both thought it exactly the same time. What would you. Because I often hear people say to me, you know, I can’t do this because I’m in this really bureaucratic organisation or, you know, actually it’s awful here, I’m in a very toxic environment, whatever, and they struggle to make a difference, or, you know, I think of it as creating an umbrella for the people below them. And what would your advice be? You’ve been there and done that?

Perry Timms [00:30:36]:
Yeah, I, I think I’ve matured my perspective on this as well, because I would almost go, well, that’s just ridiculous. Why don’t you just. And so it was a, it took me a long time to kind of go, but that’s just you projecting what you’ve done onto them and their situation is different to you. So I now have much more empathy for people in those roles and tend to want to find out more about what’s behind it. I have come to realise that some people get a little bit helpless and then find that actually quite comforting and stay in this helpless space because then they can blame everybody else. I don’t want to judge it, but I’ve seen it when I’ve tried to help people and I’ve kind of thought, hang on a minute, you’re Just you actually quite like this helplessness, don’t you? So I’ve sort of deduced that sometimes those circumstances are things where you can’t rescue people and you’ve got to accept that there’s something going on that’s beyond what you can do. So. So that is one bit of advice, which is just because you found a way and you think other people can, don’t overplay what you’ve done on them and don’t try and rescue them.

Perry Timms [00:31:39]:
Help them know what their rescue looks like, hold space for them and prompt and provoke and analyse and play back to them, but don’t impose anything on anybody, really. Let them find out. So this is where coaching skills come in really, really well, because that’s kind of the essence of it really, isn’t it? So that. That is definitely a piece of advice. Take that coaching approach and don’t project yourself too strongly into them. But. But I think what I’ve realised is everybody has this different sense of who they are and what they’re here to do. I kind of arrived at it without worrying too much about the definitive nature of it and the absolute straight line to it.

Perry Timms [00:32:20]:
Luckily for me, my. What I’m here to do is just like, just learn whatever I can and be sure that whatever I’m attached to brings me to life. That’s pretty much it. Some people want a bit tighter definition and some people don’t even want one at all. So I’ve come to accept that just because I’ve got something that’s quite loose but sparks me into action, others might want more straight line. And you might not be able to draw that for them, but you can help them understand how they can. So. So, yeah, I think this whole sense of being comfortable, being a bit of an outlier or standard in certain spaces, believing in certain things, is almost like this assembly of elements of who you really are and what you’re here to do.

Perry Timms [00:33:05]:
And we all come at that at a different time and we all have different perspectives. Perspectives on it. So I just like to listen and help people reveal what’s really going on for them and what they want to do about that, not what I think they should do.

Not specified [00:33:21]:
So it’s a very personal journey that people will take.

Perry Timms [00:33:25]:
Definitely that. And there’s something about it I love you see, because when I started talking about hr, I said it is about people, but it isn’t because it’s people in systems I’m really interested in. What is the system that people are in and what’s that kind of guiding them to think and feel and do, versus who are they and how congruent are they with that system and how much can they change and shape that system or make their own. Right, so there’s layers in this, and I love exploring the layers with people because I’ve come across CEOs and HR directors and we’ve had conversations and they’ve told me about their challenges and I help them find out, is that the system causing you problems and what can you do to change it, or is that you just not. Not in the right system? System. And that’s been quite profound. People have gone, yeah, I don’t really. I don’t really belong to this system, do I? And whether they create a bubble around it, engineer something different or exit or whatever, that realisation, I think of your span of control and influence and.

Perry Timms [00:34:22]:
And knowing what’s right for you, that’s super important.

Not specified [00:34:26]:
Yeah. I increasingly find people I’m working with, I work with a lot of people in their 40s and 50s who are questioning, you know, but what they exist for.

Perry Timms [00:34:38]:
Yeah.

Not specified [00:34:38]:
You know, they’ve kind of followed a path and that path, it’s not necessarily been their own, it’s somebody else’s. And they get to a point where they’re successful often, but they’re still thinking, I’m not sure this is really what I want.

Perry Timms [00:34:54]:
So true. You know, I mean, that’s a very useful little pop in there because there are success criteria that we think equal success, but they might not be our success criteria. So we almost attach themselves, ourselves to them, so that other people go, oh, yeah, look at their success. And you’re sitting there thinking, but they’re not really my parameters. But I’ve kind of got to show up like that because that’s the game I’m in. What I love is where you go into what really brings people to life, sparks and all that. And then they start talking about things and I’m like, well, where are they on YouTube, your success parameters? And they’re like, it doesn’t match any of that. It’s like, that’s quite telling.

Perry Timms [00:35:31]:
So I think there is something about, like you said, this discovery in this journey, and we do often arrive at it after key life events because we’ve sort of formed experience and opinions. But I do see in the way people kind of navigate the world, and maybe it’s because the world’s information is more open and we know more. Sooner and whatever. Almost to the point. Deluge. I see a lot of people who are younger than I was who realise what it’s about for them. Planet, society, give back learning, early retirement, whatever. And I’m like, wow, to be that sure, that young, that’s cool, because I wish I was.

Perry Timms [00:36:08]:
So I do think people arrive at different times now, perhaps more than they used to. But I do think there’s also this little trail of experiments that you’ve done, without necessarily naming them that, that you get to a point where you’re like, I’ve got a sense of what this is all about now and it might not be where I am, but it might be with a bit of pivoting or there’s a different path now. And I’m pretty sure that’s where it is. And that, I think gives people a whole different sense of momentum. They feel unshackled. They want to really sort of define who they are by what they do, not just by what they achieve in the traditional sense. So I see a lot of people much more comfortable with what I like to call prosperity because that doesn’t just mean financial prosperity, that can be time, connection to community, family, whatever it is, if they’re prosperous with humans and social. Some people are going, that’s.

Perry Timms [00:37:01]:
That’s what it’s about for me.

Melody Moore [00:37:02]:
Yeah.

Not specified [00:37:03]:
Robin Sharma, I’ve just been reading his book about wealth and he describes same. It’s. There’s different kinds of wealth because it’s not just financial wealth. I’m curious, you know, if you were to, you know, if you had a blank slate to describe experiences or training that the HR professionals should have.

Perry Timms [00:37:29]:
Yeah.

Not specified [00:37:29]:
What would you say? How, how do you help create the very best HR profession?

Perry Timms [00:37:35]:
It’s lovely that, because I do think it connects to what I kind of led with. So I’ll take the people bit first. And I’m not suggesting that every single person in the HR professional arena needs a psychology degree, but it’s not going to be harmful if you do. Because. Because I think the psychology of people, both individually and in social settings and in professional settings and in trauma and whatever, is massively useful as a starting point to understand what’s going on here. How do I get some. Something going that means we are more inclusive, fair, participatory, whatever it is. So I think psychology and people science, huge leg up in what you can impact on if you’re a HR professional in that space.

Perry Timms [00:38:25]:
And then I think there’s something connected to that which is about understanding systems, systems thinking, design thinking, understanding, even things like W. Edwards Deming, Total quality management, lean, all of that. Right. If you know more about the engineering bit, you can understand how that splices or clashes with the psychology bit. So, yeah, double down on psychology, double down on systems. That’s a great start. Increasingly now technology, what it is, what it isn’t, what it does, what it doesn’t. Because I still think we’ve got a very, and I mean this nicely, 1998, 2002 view on tech, and it’s way beyond that because I think if you know psychology, you know how people can respond to a deluge of emails or constant slack messages, or being left out in chains of social chat online and stuff.

Perry Timms [00:39:26]:
It’s like this is not just how, how you use a platform, it’s what does it do to us? What, what, what does psychosis look like when it’s manifested on technology? You know, all this kind of stuff. So, so that’s an extra element that brings those two things together. And then I think the other thing that brings those two things and even tech together is understanding economics and value so that we know how the monetary systems of the world really work. Because we’re paying people and we’re setting reward parameters and we’re setting intentional retention and benefit parameters. But like, do we even know how this stuff hangs together and what’s important for people in cost of living crises and so on? The answer is probably not enough. So I think there’s something about that almost like, you know, triangulation with those things. People, systems and tech, People, systems and economics and value. Because I think if I was starting again in hr, I’d want to make sure those four things are absolutely just stacked up inside me to know what levers to pour, how to be influential, persuasive and so on.

Perry Timms [00:40:34]:
So, so I think it’s those four things, people, systems, economics and tech, super important.

Not specified [00:40:41]:
And how much do you think of that is included in current HR development?

Perry Timms [00:40:48]:
Yeah, people science and by that I also can include data and analytics and evidence and so on. People, science and stuff like that is increasingly evident and the system side of things is getting stronger because we’re looking at org design, org development, those kinds of things much more favourably within hr. I don’t know an HR business partner I’ve spoken to in the last couple of years who hasn’t said how much, the more they need to assemble OD skills into their toolkit. So that’s nice to hear, right, that people are really trying to get the top two. In some areas the tech’s great. A talent acquisition and recruitment community are absolutely pushing known boundaries when it comes to technology and AI and so on. So we’ve got an imbalance there. And on the economic side, nowhere near it.

Perry Timms [00:41:38]:
L and D when it comes to evaluating the impact of training, nowhere near it. Hr, understanding the financial impacts of having ridiculously toxic cultures and pervasive return to office dictates nowhere near it. So the economic stuff is a huge gap for us and the value side of things.

Not specified [00:41:58]:
So one of the questions I just wrote down for myself to ask you was around your views on return to office mandates. I know they’re very. It’s very emotive topic and I’m curious.

Melody Moore [00:42:09]:
To hear your perspective.

Perry Timms [00:42:10]:
Yeah, so I’ll give. Actually, going back to my. My question, I’ll start with the economic bit first. Right. So there are, I think, a couple of plays involved in this that aren’t getting talked about enough. We are potentially looking at a corporate real estate crash because there’s been an enormous amount of money thrown into corporate real estate. So I’m under no illusion that return to office has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with economics. And I don’t like how that feels because that’s misguiding people to come back to create team spirit, when actually it’s like, I can’t have an empty asset because, you know, it could be a crash in the system.

Perry Timms [00:42:47]:
It’s like if there’s a crash in the system, it’s because that system’s not good enough and it needs recalibrating. So what I’m urging corporate real estate people to do is don’t just stuff people back into offices because you think that’s good use of your asset. Think I’ve got an asset, what can I do with it? Because if it’s not fit for purpose anymore, because generally speaking, we’ve now discovered it doesn’t have to be, what can you do with it? Rather than just let it crash and burn or falsify it, think creatively and differently about what you can do. Now, I’m not suggesting it’s easy to turn an office building into accommodation that people could live in, but we have got a homelessness crisis and we have got lots of things that we can. Can do with space that we’re not doing, education, whatever it might be. So think differently. So I don’t like that not being talked about enough, because I think that’s. That’s insulting a little bit.

Perry Timms [00:43:40]:
However, what I do recognise is that after a couple of years of being locked down and separated, we. We have a thirst to come back together when it really, really matters. And I’M a little bit biassed here because I’ve spent probably about the last 25 years being remote and distant from a team. So I know what it’s like to be isolated. But you know what, you make good on it because you adapt your system and you learn how to do it. But then I’ve really appreciated when people do come together, that it’s for a really good purpose, to reconnect, to bond, to discuss, to ideate, to create. So I think we ought to double down on that. What is a brilliant recipe for combining people’s spirits in real life and what can we then do about strengthening when we’re not together in that sense, but two dimensionally and technologically? So I still think we’re asking the wrong questions and I still think we’re being a bit.

Perry Timms [00:44:35]:
What’s wishful thinking and how this will be evolved. And so people will say to me, what’s your solution then? For the bit that I’ve just talked about, not the corporate real estate crash, which I hope doesn’t happen, I hope we can avoid that because that would be damaging. So the solution for people and culture and connection and belonging and all that, is that there’s normally a unit called a team who work together, get them to work out what’s the rhythm that works for us, what do we do when we’re together that’s optimal, what’s outside us that we need to connect to and how do we work with them to make sure that it’s optimal in person or not. And I think, again, the decisions are all in the wrong places. They’re being talked about in boardrooms and it’s like not being funny, but like, that’s not the real world that we’re talking about here every day. So get teams to construct what they need from space, when they need it and how they use it, and brigade that up. I talk about mosaics a lot. So create a mosaic of teams, space, need and so on and start working with those moving parts.

Perry Timms [00:45:41]:
Because I think the answer is, is, is in that to then work back out, say, what does that mean for our real estate? How do we do it right? And then go to the landlord and say, this is what we need, and then they work out what that means as a gap to them and think, what can I do with the rest of this asset or space? But if we try and squeeze everybody back in, it ain’t going to end in a happy space. I know that. So that’s my view on that.

Melody Moore [00:46:04]:
It’s interesting.

Not specified [00:46:05]:
I’ve been Working from home since I set up my business two years ago and my big fear was that I might be lonely and miss the connection. But actually I found the opposite. Yeah, 100% the opposite. Because I’m less busy now by choice and therefore have more time to connect. So even if I’m connecting remotely, I will just, you know, I’ve sent a text to a friend slash colleague this after, you know, are you free this afternoon? And we’ll just have an hour chat. And I never used to have the time for that when I was in the office.

Perry Timms [00:46:39]:
Amen to that. Right, so I think this office social circus is a falsehood because it’s not. Because when I used to go into offices pre covered, what did I see? Lots of people with headsets or headphones on deliberately zoning out from what’s around them because they were channelling it all through their screen and it’s like, why would you force them to a place to do that, to snatch 10 minutes of social chitchat somewhere else, when actually they could create more deliberate social connections, like you just said, through tech means. I mean, the world’s been a globalised sun never set in, people all over the place thing anyway. So people like Nick Bloom at Stanford University will say flexible working was a thing anyway. So why are we starting to want to arrest the growth of that? Just because we’ve now realised that more people want it when actually it was a trend anyway, so. So I think there’s something about the acceptance of evolution and maturity and so on. I mean, there are people I’m very close to who I probably see twice a year and I’m closer to them than people I probably would have spent eight hours a day with.

Perry Timms [00:47:44]:
It’s my choice then, not just who’s around me.

Not specified [00:47:46]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we talked about one particular trend at the moment. Talk to me about what you’re seeing in terms of workplace and HR trends at the moment.

Perry Timms [00:47:59]:
I suppose what. What is almost like evident is that AI like constant. Right. So I think we’re now a couple of years into chat, GPT being around as an example now, has it completely revolutionised what I do? No. Is it much more of an effective thing I can use? Yeah. So maybe some of the hype about taking jobs is a little bit far fetched. I’ve seen some brilliant things though, where it can do loads of heavy lifting on things like data analytics that we couldn’t possibly have done ourselves. So I just think with AI, we’ve had the hype and the worries and I think we’re starting to see that coming down into, ah, see, it’s not going to happen, is it? To then a realisation that people are going, yeah, but here’s this use case, here’s this tool, here’s this thing.

Perry Timms [00:48:46]:
So I think it will start to kind of uptick again and we’ll find useful things for it. So I think we’re probably in year three of maybe a six to eight year curve before we really see the impact on what that means in jobs and roles. But BT as an example have said we recognise there’s probably going to be about 50,000 less customer service agents in the future because we know that we can do all this stuff automatically and people can self serve. Would I rather self serve and talk to somebody? It depends, but mostly yeah, if I just want to get my answer and sometimes it’s nice to have somebody, well, how are you and what’s going on? It’s like, I just want the answer. Not being funny, I just want an answer. But I know you’re doing a job, so I’m going to play that bit. But if I could talk to a bot and get my answer, I’d rather do that.

Not specified [00:49:29]:
I had that the other day. I was switching broadband providers and I. I just had a very straightforward question, which was, is there going to be a fee to. What’s the word? Where they come and put the line in installation fee. That’s all I wanted to know. Put it into the chat bot and ended up speaking to a person who then tried to sell me loads of things. And I was just like, I know. No, no, no, no.

Not specified [00:49:53]:
I literally just want this question answered. But they obviously had a thing. But it’s like that. I literally, if I could have found the answer somewhere, I would have been very happy with that.

Perry Timms [00:50:04]:
And I love exactly what you’ve said there because it is almost like as consumers, I think we are much more clued up now than perhaps we were 10, 20, 15, 20 years ago. So I think there’s something in businesses ought to reflect that and respect that. So that’s one thing. The second thing is that inclination to upsell is almost like, again, how insulting is that? It’s like, I’m a customer, I know what I want to buy. Whatever you’re telling me, I’m unlikely to buy it now because I know you’re trying to upsell, sell to me. So I’m gonna, I’m gonna pull away even further. I don’t know why sales techniques are like they are because they’re 1980s at best.

Not specified [00:50:37]:
Right.

Perry Timms [00:50:38]:
So there’s that. Now, what I really like the thought of, though, is that we can programme more ourselves as consumers and as colleagues, what we get from tech, because at the minute we have to get what somebody else has built, right? So I think there will come a point where we are able to deploy tech how we want to. And that excites the heck out of me because it almost feels like we truly can democratise technology when we get that. I’ll give an example. I’m working in hr, I’m in a big organisation, it’s very busy and I can’t get enough, almost like voice from Frontline, because they’re always out facing customers and I just don’t get to know enough about what culture means to them and what they really want from careers. But what I can do is I can ask my bot to say, what stuff do people talk about in amongst themselves? I’m not intruding on them, I just want to know the theme so that I can put something to them that’s very contextual so they come back with that data and I am able to send a little tiny survey out and get really rich responses. And then I want the tech to go, now, if I model this, if we improve all these things people have said, what will that do to our business and speed and retention and so on? And I want it to forecast ahead and sort of say, you’re likely to save X amount on your recruitment budget. You can have more satisfied people, more advocacy, more this, more that, and it equals this value, human, social, intellectual and financial.

Perry Timms [00:52:04]:
And I can then go to my director, who I’m working closely with, and say, I’ve got something for you, you’re going to love it and present it to them. And they’ll go, I didn’t even ask you for that. It’s like, no, you don’t have to now. That’s what I’d love tech to do for hr.

Not specified [00:52:18]:
So allow HR to be more proactive.

Perry Timms [00:52:20]:
It sounds completely probing, analysing and absolutely what you said there, which is not wait to be asked to do something because by then it’s almost too late. But to preempt something by saying, if we’re not careful, we’re going to lose some talent, we’re going to see some dips. And I’d love that to be the signature trait of hr, by saying, we’re giving you people intelligence which you didn’t even know you could get. I love that. So that’s the technology trend and it’s potential. But I do think the advent of that is giving us a really nice thing. And this is another trend, almost humanization of work. Right.

Perry Timms [00:52:57]:
Which is what we’ve been talking about. Who am I? What am I here to do? And how do I get that from you? And I think there’s more now about life episodes and changes and choices and so on. And I think we used to go, no, works in a box, this is what you do. And I think now we’ve said it’s impossible to put work in a box, so let’s work it out between us. When do you want to work on what, how, where, why? So I think the humanised work bit starts by deconstructing some of the constraints we have built in order to do replicable, scalable, reliable stuff in a job and just say, there’s the work, how do we organise to get that work done? And it’s much more crowdsourcing and all that kind of thing which people then go ask mad and chaotic. It’s like not, not necessarily if you do it the right way, with the right systems and the right approaches and the right behaviours. Absolutely. So I think humanising work is something we’ve probably been talking about for a while.

Perry Timms [00:53:51]:
I sense it’s more accessible and likely now with the advent of better tech, better science, better appreciation of overloading people and boring them to tears and bringing them to life instead and so on. So I get this sense that we are willing it into existence and we’re just happening to coincide with tech and attitudes and evidence and so on. That’s telling us we should pursue that so much more liberated organisations, maybe even, you know, the gig type, you know, multiple employer sort of model, is just going to be much more ubiquitous and likely that we don’t own people. We are kind of both renting for each other for now, you know, that kind of thing. So I can see that. And so I. I see it manifested in the way organisations want to talk about talent retention. I hear a lot more talk about skills based hiring, skills based structures.

Perry Timms [00:54:47]:
I see a lot more about this to fluidity, agility and people saying, how do I do it? Most of the answers to that are, you’ve got to let go of some of the things you’ve got that hold you in place now and be prepared for experiments that are a little bit racy, but will get you to a point where you can reveal what you can really do here with people in a way that you probably would never do if you didn’t experiment. So I think that’s Crucial experimentation within HR has to become something we don’t just do now and then. It’s almost like everything we do is a constant experiment. So a lovely phrase that came from somebody I know in Canada called Harold Jackie. He talks about perpetual beta like it’s never finished.

Not specified [00:55:29]:
Yes, like that.

Perry Timms [00:55:30]:
That, yeah.

Not specified [00:55:33]:
Honestly, I’ve got about a million questions I’ve just written down, but let me ask you one related directly to that. So if, if it’s going to be much more gig economy, much more fluid, maybe more transactional and you know, I mean, I’ve always thought that organisations wanting.

Melody Moore [00:55:52]:
Their people to be loyal to them.

Not specified [00:55:53]:
Is crazy because they’re not loyal to their employees when they need to make them redundant. So in my mind that’s always been a bit of a fallacy. But what do you think it means for managers and leaders then? If. If they’re not going to have a fixed team that’s theirs all of the time, you know, what does that mean in terms of how they need to change the way they’re behaving?

Perry Timms [00:56:16]:
Yeah, I mean, it calls into question the whole existence of the role, particularly managers, because they are seen to be this kind of allocator role, aren’t they? And I think what they would probably welcome is less of that and more this curator, convener, catalyst. But ultimately I think, what do people want from a manager? Because clarity. Well, I can still do that. It’s like, right, we’re here together, we’ve not worked together before, but this is what we’re after. Who’s bringing what, how do we do this? So I think that that more conversational shaping stuff is actually quite nice. And then I think people want support, so they want coaching, they want backing, they want problem solving, kick arounds. So I think the manager will become this convener, this clarifier and this coach. I mean, those three Cs are quite nice to keep in mind because when I think about all the wonderful managers and leaders I’ve ever had, they’ve all done that.

Perry Timms [00:57:13]:
I’ve been clear about what it’s doing. I know they’ve got my back when I get stuck, they help me out and they bring things to me that are needed. So it’s almost like, wow, well, that redefines that. So then you go, what do leaders need to do? Probably a bigger, bolder version of that. Clarity, where we headed? Here’s the outside world. You might not know this, but I also think they probably have another additional thing which is almost like they’ve got to create this sense of energy and possibility and stimulation and drive. So they’ve got to be really inspiring. I think the difference between a manager and a leader is the manager’s kind of got you back.

Perry Timms [00:57:49]:
The leader inspires you to go where you feel a bit risky anyway, so. So that’s what I think the difference was will be tempo, broadness of vision, adaptability, but also listening. Empathetic still, but almost like I can see what’s possible here. Manager, let’s get some teams together, do the bits that get us there and tell me if we’re getting there and that’s not right because I can help us reorient and so on. So yeah, so I think it would change it for the better because I think, you know, lots of people who are in leader manager roles, they’re just senior, well paid bureaucrats.

Not specified [00:58:24]:
What about measuring return on investment? You talked about, you know, the return on L and D for instance. I’ve always thought it’s a tricky thing because nothing happens in isolation, everything happens in a system. You know, I do a lot of work in the D and I world and D and I is really interesting because it’s constantly being asked to prove its worth in a way that nothing else is. Which is kind of really says it all about our view actually on diversity and inclusion. But yeah, talk to me about your thoughts on, yeah, roi.

Perry Timms [00:59:00]:
And I think that’s where it has to go. Richer than just intervention to, you know, kind of causal trail return on finance. I think it, like you said, it’s richer, isn’t it? So when I did some digging around on this, I came across a study that Alex Edmonds, who’s a London business school professor of economics, did. He started out by looking at csr, believe it or not, because he said people want to do CSR but they don’t know what the value of it is. So who does CSR well and how does that link to their performance? But he couldn’t find that. But he found something else different and he was glad he did because he mapped all the companies that supposedly are the happiest with highest levels of satisfaction, engagement, happiness on an index and then the kind of stock prices of those. He went, I actually there’s a read across these happy companies are also very successful on the stock market. Is one the cause of the other or is it a lovely loop? I think he more or less concluded that it is likely that the happiness is a stronger cause of continual success because when people have got good products, they hit market share.

Perry Timms [01:00:05]:
If they then don’t look after their people. That may not be the case any longer. So I think he was calling out this causal trail between well supported employees and good performance in stock value as like I found a trail that I’m not sure we knew existed that strongly and I’ve seen a few studies since that sort of do that alignment piece And James Timpson, the famous entrepreneur guy now in the House of Lords said when my people are happy around, profits are up. He said I’ve just noticed that trend. It’s like wow. So I do think we can go beyond those small causal Did I help somebody perform better by learning what does performance even mean look like? Got to get a Ritter palette of success criteria. I think ultimately everything lands on the financial bucket anyway. But I think what we can start to do is create more financial calculations on if we’re a socially cohesive organisation we all look out for each other, we pull together, we don’t argue, we’re not split and divisive what does that create as financial value to the company? And I think we can show innovation customer service because of that.

Perry Timms [01:01:20]:
So I think it’s. We’ve almost got to map it more than line it up, if that makes sense. So it’s a little bit chaos theory or complexity theory but I think we can then show how all trails lead to financial viability profit if you’re a government department, more frugal budget but greater impact or whatever it might be. So I don’t think we can avoid the financial question, nor should we, but we don’t obsess about it just on very thinly veiled KPI parameters we get rich, broad, deep, almost a bit like obtuse, ethereal and abstract stuff we can assign value to. I remember Sheffield City Council once did something which I think they’ve now abandoned but they tried to put a monetary value on trees in Sheffield by saying if we chop down that tree it reduces oxygenation and that increases pollution which we have to spend money countering. I don’t think they continue with but I love the fact they tried to start valuing natural assets like that and I think this is where tech comes to help us out because it’s too complicated for us.

Not specified [01:02:27]:
It’s got a bigger brain. I remember a very long time ago reading something and I really wish it’s one of those things, you know, it’s always stuck in my head. I have no idea even where I read it. It might have been the Harvard Business Review. There was something about Ellen D Spend correlating with oh yeah, Another one. You mean financial performance of organisations?

Perry Timms [01:02:47]:
Yeah, I know the one you mean. And I’ve also seen how much money spent on leadership development with very questionable outputs. So I think there are some calculations out there that give us something to go on. But I, I absolutely love the thought that at the moment we don’t really can. We can’t really put a financial value on somebody being confident in the work they’re doing. We just can’t do that yet. When we get a manager to select a team and they’ll say, yeah, put them on it. Why is that? It’s like, well, I’m really confident in them.

Perry Timms [01:03:17]:
It’s like, so value that. You know what I mean? Well, the value is, you don’t have to recruit somebody or test expertise or whatever. You know, this time savings, you can equate money to that. So I do think we stop too quickly on abstract things, trying to put calculations to them when we should just probe and explore and go, what could that be measured by? When I looked at stock market valuations and so on, those calculations are not that robust. They’re still things like potential sales. That’s not real sales, is it? So if we value a company based on that, we can value people based on such parameters. Right. But we don’t do enough of it.

Perry Timms [01:03:57]:
And I absolutely love the thought that one of HR’s charges is, I’m not having that anymore. I want to use tech and I want to use different forms to show what value people create in the systems we’ve got, so that when we course correct, we know why and we know what it should reveal. And I think the rest of the business world will thank us for that because nobody else is trying to do that. I know the OECD and World Economic Forum try and put some value on skills and stuff like that, and even they find it really difficult with lots of very bright economists. But in the workplace we can trickle this from the bottom up, I think.

Not specified [01:04:31]:
Talk to me about where both where you’re going, your organisation is going, what’s next for you, but also what you think is, you know, we’ve talked about what’s current now, what do you think’s coming up in the future.

Perry Timms [01:04:43]:
So I do think all those things actually are why I do what I do in the way that I do. I have to kind of meet people where they are because clearly they want solve problems today and they don’t just want me to talk whimsically about what could happen tomorrow. But I’m really excited about leading what we’re doing now to help that almost like aspiration become more realistic and likely. So I am genuinely headed towards that sort of thing where we can, we can really centre work on it being valuable to people’s lives and it also happens to create economic outputs as almost like an aside, because I do have this sense that things like Planet Repair need to become a thing that we spend time doing. And I take great comfort in people who are trying to build enterprises based around the use of algae to consume single use plastics and turn them into compostable material. I’m like, there’s very clever people doing very clever things. They ought to be the things that we are in glory of, not just Apple’s latest device. Do you know what I mean? So I think there’s something exciting about that opportunity that I want to be part of by making sure that the profession that looks after people is ready for that and can almost drive that on with more gusto and acceleration.

Perry Timms [01:06:00]:
So I’ll give an example actually. So I am doubling down on things like what is a skills based organisation and what will that do for us and how would that help access, accelerate that kind of pathway to more choice, more inclusion, more innovation, more likely success in big ticket issues. So yes, I’m doing research on that. I’m trying to connect it to things like strategic workforce planning, succession, talent, all the things we know are useful but could be massively turbocharged and then linking that to how HR goes. Don’t worry, C Suite, we can reshape you pull the strings, sort people’s agendas out, bring the right people in, let the right people go at the right times and do all the things you, you just keep your eye on the markets and the products and the governance and the things that you’re there to do. We’ll help you with the people bit, the culture bit and the stuff that you find difficult to manage because you’re not us, we can help help with that. And then like HR doesn’t have to say, what about a seat at the table? HRs like come and sit at our table. Do you know what I mean? Literally that.

Perry Timms [01:07:14]:
And that’s the kind of thing I really want to be part of. So I think we’ve got to change our experience levels and capability levels in certain areas like we’ve talked about. I think we position ourselves differently, we heighten expectations once we know we can deliver to them. And we only do that by experience, experimenting and showing. And I’m giving myself a kind of 10 year window to then look back and Go, oh, I’m glad I said that then, because look at where it is now. I mean, not that I love the direct causation of that, but that I sensed it and I wanted to bring it into people’s minds. Here’s an example, right? So about 10 years ago, I thought, what. What could happen in the world? And I.

Perry Timms [01:07:54]:
I predicted that, you know, we wouldn’t need as many managers and we would probably, probably lose the construct of a job. And people probably like, yeah, whatever, 10 years ago. Now, 10 years on, I see a lot more talk about changing manager roles and jobs not being the way we need to go forward. I’m like, so I didn’t have some soothsayer prediction and perhaps I did somewhat want to be rebellious and contrary by popping them out there, but I look back now and think I kind of got the sense of something now. I feel much more comfortable, confident, likely to happen. So I think I’ve been comforted by the fact that if you’re on a particular curve, not everybody’s there and when they start to get there, don’t be kind of like, told you so just go, right, now’s the time. And that’s where I’m really putting a lot of my stock and energy. And now’s the time for a different type of hr.

Perry Timms [01:08:46]:
People and culture really is the kind of driving vehicle for it. And I think when I look at the investment world, the investment world is not just saying, what’s your product platform and market differentiator, they’re saying, what’s your leadership like? What’s your culture like? What people have you got? And I think if they’re asking those questions, HR’s got to be ready to step up and answer those and really show how organisations are people powered and that that’s where we put a lot of our effort and time and energy. So that’s really getting me excited. And I think that comes in interventions, writing programmes, experiments, but ultimately evidence, impact. What does it do? What does it look like? Get people excited. So, yeah, that’s me.

Not specified [01:09:28]:
I love the idea of experiments. That really speaks to me, this idea of just experimenting with different things, you know, pilots, lots of pilots. Because often pilots are done when actually the thing that’s going to happen has already been decided.

Perry Timms [01:09:43]:
True.

Not specified [01:09:44]:
So a pilot is just, we’ve decided to do X and we’re going to fiddle with it. Whereas what happens if you just did lots of little pilots and tried out different things? It would be a completely different.

Perry Timms [01:09:56]:
Yeah, you’re so right. Because what. What pilots Tend to be is a rehearsal of what you’ve already got, not a revealing probe to the future. And that’s what you just described, which is, we don’t quite know where this is going to go, but we won’t know until we experiment. So let’s get a pilot going. Yeah, totally agree with that.

Not specified [01:10:13]:
Yeah. Okay, I’m going to ask you some of my stuff, standard questions now that I ask everybody. The first is, what advice would you give to your younger self?

Perry Timms [01:10:23]:
Oh, see, I did prepare for this one because I knew it was coming. So I can loop it back right when I was like, I don’t know, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 years old. I didn’t know what I wanted to be, but I did know a few things that interested me and that was learning. I was constantly wanting to learn and read and do things. I was also very into stories, both reading them and telling them. And that thing about protection that I talked about at the start, I had that in me. I got very into the animal kingdom and I could see that what we were doing in the world was damaging the ecosystem even in the 1970s. And I wanted to be, you know, I could have been a Greenpeace warrior or something if I’d have chosen that path.

Perry Timms [01:11:03]:
But protectionism came in. Now my younger self had those three things without names to them where I’ve chosen to get to in the workplace. Those three things are really ubiquitous in my world. I tell stories, I hear stories, I learn, I help people learn. I want to protect the right things and be part of protecting future shape of that. So I think I tell myself to just be more alive to them and know them and name them and. And be really comfortable in perspective pursuing them because I sort of found my way to work that does those three things accidentally. And I just love the thought that I’d have been a bit more deliberate and alive to it because I like the fact I’ve discovered it now, but I think I’d have liked it earlier on.

Not specified [01:11:48]:
A bit earlier.

Perry Timms [01:11:49]:
Yeah, yeah, exactly that, Yes. I think that’s what I would tell myself. And. And I think the other thing, I would not be apologetic about where I’ve come from, working class background and all that. I used to sort of not lead with that. Now I lead with that because I’m actually proud of that. But I. I found it a little.

Perry Timms [01:12:06]:
I was a little bit envious of people who had degrees and stuff and. And now I’d be like, no, I’m. I’m proud of where I come from.

Not specified [01:12:14]:
Yeah, love that. What about any book recommendations? I can see many books on your shelves behind you.

Perry Timms [01:12:21]:
Yeah. So I. I would encourage people to pick up anything at all. That’s written by a guy called Russell Akov who’s a systems thinker. So it’s a C, K, O, double F. Russell Ackoff, he wrote mostly in the 90s, 80s and 90s about things like systems and that systems thinking thing I talked about. His work is incredible. I would also recommend, over the last couple of years there’s been a few really standout books and this year is the 10 year anniversary of one which is Reinventing Organisations by Frederick Laloux.

Perry Timms [01:12:56]:
So that’s still worth diving into and I’d say probably a couple of, you know, more recent interpretations on those themes. Gary Hamill and Michele Zanini have written a terrific book called Humanocracy. That’s top. Yeah. And then a good friend of mine from Denmark, Eric Ostergaard, O S T E R G A A R D has written a lovely book called Teal Dots in an Orange World. And it’s all about little tiny experiments of progressiveness in a bigger scheme of traditional enterprises. So it talks exactly to what we’ve been sharing. Melody, Eric’s book.

Perry Timms [01:13:43]:
So Eric, Gary, Michele, Frederick and Russell.

Melody Moore [01:13:47]:
Fabulous.

Not specified [01:13:48]:
Thank you. I will be straight on Amazon buying all of those. And final question. And I think we came to the answer. I think if you’re happy with that was around the title.

Perry Timms [01:14:03]:
Yeah.

Not specified [01:14:03]:
Rebel Withercores. Yes.

Perry Timms [01:14:05]:
Do you know what? I love it.

Not specified [01:14:07]:
I do too. That’s fab. And I think that’s hilarious that we just both went, that’s the one, isn’t it?

Perry Timms [01:14:12]:
Just we kind of hoped that would happen. James Dean very briefly popped into my head. And then also the rap group Public Enemy because they had Rebel Without A Pause, I think as one of their tracks. Yeah. So pause. Cause. But I like the Rebel With A Cause thing.

Not specified [01:14:31]:
I do that.

Perry Timms [01:14:32]:
That’s lovely. Thank you, Melody, that’s great.

Not specified [01:14:34]:
So thank you so much. That has been absolutely fascinating. My brain is, I think might explode now, but really, really interesting. Really nice to learn a bit more.

Melody Moore [01:14:45]:
About you, but also to really hear.

Not specified [01:14:47]:
About your thoughts on the world of hr.

Perry Timms [01:14:50]:
So thank you.

Not specified [01:14:51]:
Thank you so much.

Perry Timms [01:14:52]:
Pleasure. Pleasure.

Melody Moore [01:14:53]:
This is one of those podcasts that was an absolute joy to record. I have met Perry quite some time ago actually and I’ve avidly followed him on LinkedIn for quite some time now and love what he talks about. Always enjoy reading what he’s written. And so I was really happy and Thrilled that he agreed to come on the podcast. There’s a couple of things that really stood out to me from the conversation. The first was about him and what shines out from him is this real curiosity and a focus on learning that is a really core part of who he is, but also the rebellion, hence the title of the podcast. This idea of him being a rebel with a cause I really liked, and that is one of the things that I’ve always enjoyed following him for on LinkedIn, is because he has a different way of thinking about things and he’s not afraid to talk about it. The second thing I really thought was very helpful was his thoughts on HR and what he would focus on if he was developing HR professionals or suggesting to HR professionals what to focus on.

Melody Moore [01:16:07]:
And those four things of, you know, the psychology, the understanding of people being really, obviously really important. But I think deeper is the psychology and getting a bit deeper with that. The second is understanding the system. And I think that many of us, when we think about development, don’t think enough about the system that people are operating in, so their system. The third one was economics. So understanding economics and value, how do you make your money as a business, how do you prove return on investment? So actually really understanding the economics of the business and of hr. And then the final one was tech. And that obviously is such a core thing that we’re seeing increasingly, particularly with the rise of AI, is understanding how tech works, but also how we respond to tech and how actually having so much tech in our lives impacts us.

Melody Moore [01:17:04]:
And from an HR perspective, and understanding jobs and roles and the psychological impact of tech is super important. And those were the four things he would recommend that HR professionals focus on in their development. So people, systems, economics and tech. The next thing that I really enjoyed was talk to him about the role of managers, particularly how that’s changing and how, particularly in the gig economy. Many years ago, some of my colleagues at hey Group wrote a book called Leadership 2030 and they wrote it in collaboration with some futurologists and they talked about this maybe 10 years ago. They talked about the fact that we’re going to be moving more to a gig economy and we’re going to be not having so many people who are full time employed by organisations, but we’re going to use a lot more contractors. I’m seeing that already. And what does that mean as a leader? What does that mean as a manager? And he talked about the role of the manager as the convener, a clarifier and a coach.

Melody Moore [01:18:06]:
And I think there’s probably more that we can be doing in terms of really understanding how leadership and management has changed and what does that really mean for the skills that we require of managers, and what does it actually mean to be a manager now and in the future? I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did. Next week we’re continuing with our HR Leaders series. We’re going to be talking to Stella Collins, who is absolutely fabulous and the author of Neuroscience for Learning and Development. So we’re going to be having a real deep dive into learning and development. I do hope you will join us. This podcast is brought to you by Liberare Consulting. If you enjoyed today’s show, why not click on the subscribe button so you are among the first to hear about new episodes and we would love for you to do us a favour and click on the Share button and share this episode with one of your friends.